"Translated and edited by"

I've run a search but been unable to find discussions that have previously dealt with this problem. I hope I am not going over something that has already been solved.

I'm looking for some way to get Zotero to output: "translated and edited by X" in the bibliography and "trans. and ed. X" instead of having it appear as "Translated by X. Edited by X," and "trans. X, ed. X." Sorry if this sounds confusing. I can imagine that this is of concern to people using many different styles, but I'm trying it with Chicago (full).

Basically, Zotero needs to recognize when the translator and editor of a given book are identical. I'm going to reproduce below what Zotero currently does for a particular record:

FOOTNOTE:
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, The Monadology and Other Philosophical Writings, ed. Robert Latta, trans. Robert Latta (London: Oxford University Press, 1898).

BIBLIOGRAPHY:
Leibniz, Gottfried Wilhelm. The Monadology and Other Philosophical Writings. Edited by Robert Latta. Translated by Robert Latta. London: Oxford University Press, 1898.

I WANT:
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, The Monadology and Other Philosophical Writings, trans. and ed. Robert Latta (London: Oxford University Press, 1898).

and

Leibniz, Gottfried Wilhelm. The Monadology and Other Philosophical Writings. Edited and translated by Robert Latta. London: Oxford University Press, 1898.
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  • edited April 1, 2008
    I am not sure if CSL can do this right now. I would guess that this situation does not come up that often but it should eventually be worked in. For the time being you will need to just manually edit your bibliographic entries when the editor and translator are the same person.
  • Thanks so much for your response. In the humanities it actually comes up all the time. If you look at many translations of philosophy, they are edited and translated by the same people.
  • While I can see this might be nice to have, how would you propose to do it practically? Remember: computers are really, really, dumb, so rules of this sort have to be explicitly itemized.

    I see potential problems, like:

    Your examples above are easy, but what happens if for some reasons the roles in question come at the front of the reference? Or even worse: one role typically comes at the front because it's primary, and another comes later becomes it's secondary. Example: you cite a film where the creator is both producer and director. How does THAT get formatted?

    Right now, here's how you get the role printed in CSL:

    <macro name="editor-translator">
    <names variable="editor translator" delimiter=", ">
    <name and="symbol" initialize-with=". " delimiter=", "/>
    <label form="short" prefix=" (" suffix=".)"/>
    </names>
    </macro>


    I'm having a hard time ATM seeing an easy way to add explicit rules for collapsing roles here.
  • edited April 3, 2008
    I'm having a hard time ATM seeing an easy way to add explicit rules for collapsing roles here.
    How about adding creator role "ed. and trans." both in Zotero and CSL? A user would only have to enter the creator once then.
  • Yes, I forgot about that one; it's an option.

    The problem is it's rather inflexible. It works in this case, but are there other cases of multiple roles?
  • The problem is it's rather inflexible. It works in this case, but are there other cases of multiple roles?
    Well, in the case of producer and director, only the director will be cited anyway. In cases like "translated and with introduction by" Chicago says it's fine to omit "introduction by" and just go with "translated by." An author of a book section who is also an editor of the book is cited twice in two separate places. I think "ed. and trans." is the only frequently cited case.
  • I think that parts of the approaches of Bruce (automated collapsing) and ezralogo (special input field) could be combined to provide a flexible solution that wouldn't be too difficult to implement.

    It gets into the nitty-gritty a bit, but during processing you can check to see if two namesets (editor and translator in Bruce's example above) are identical. If they are, you check for a localized term that is a (hmmm, sorted) catenation of the term label keys (the nameset variable names). In the example, that would be "editortranslator". If that term is available, you use the special term (which can be pluralized in the normal way, which is a nice touch), and drop one of the namesets. If no term is found, you fall back to using both namesets with their separate labels.

    This approach would have some advantages:

    - It doesn't require presentation-driven changes to the input data, which could cause problems (the example Bruce gives of translator and editor being listed in different parts of the style would bite here).

    - It is extensible. If there is need, a style can add collapsing for "directorproducer" or "editorsponsortranslator" or whatever.

    - It would cope smoothly with the problem of labels with prefix/suffix combinations like (ed.) and (trans.), which would create big problems if you were collapsing the original terms themselves.

    - It doesn't require elaborate additions to the body of CSL.

    Could be one way to go, anyway.

    Frank
  • @fbennett--Your solution sounds great to me.
  • Have somebody made it work? I tried different ways but couldn`t do it. It still separates editor and translator, although they are written the same.
  • Look at the Chicago styles for examples of implementation.
    Note that you must use "editor translator" (with a space), not "editortranslator".
    Cf. https://forums.zotero.org/discussion/24685/edited-and-translated-by/

    We can take a look at your code if you save it as a public gist and post the link here.
  • (also I'm not sure if this works with every CSL implementation. We know it works with Zotero and Mendeley).
  • Here is a gist: https://gist.github.com/romanraspopov/5645580
    Have a look at
    <macro name="second-position-creators">
    and
    <macro name="second-position-creators-no-authors">

    I tried these variants:
    1) Leave only variable="editor translator" instead of variable="author collection-editor editor translator".
    2) Remove delimiter="; "/
    3) Change label forms.

    But it wouldn`t work. Surprising that Chicago style works perfectly but when I try to use a piece of code from there, my style doesn`t work as expected. I may have missed somthing else...

    P.S.: I`m using Zotero.
  • Ah, good, that's clear.

    It's failing because of the other creators that you are also rendering with the cs:names node. It's easy to fix, but your choice of variables prompts a question. Will there be cases where the collection-editor variable should also be merged with translator (as in "Smith, ed. & trans.")? If you can confirm whether that will ever happen (i.e. a matching name as collection-editor and translator), and if so how you want the style to handle it, we can work out how to produce the effect you're after.
  • I see...

    Can this be set optionally (whether I want collection-editor to be merged with translator or not merged) by means of standard definitions in CSL file? How can I do this?
  • It can't be set currently, it's simply not done. The question is if it ever should be?
  • I think it should be done.
    At least some solution not to spoil the displaying of "editortranslator" when collection-editor is also present.
  • By the way, I tried to remove collection-editor from the macro, but it didn`t work. May there be any other problem?
  • At least some solution not to spoil the displaying of "editortranslator" when collection-editor is also present.
    that's possible by just adding it in a separate cs:names element

    I'll take another look at this in your style later.
  • ... separate cs:names element

    I thought of it and made it this way:

    <macro name="second-position-creators">
    <group delimiter="; ">
    <names variable="author collection-editor" delimiter="; ">
    <label form="short" prefix=" " suffix=". " text-case="lowercase" strip-periods="true"/>
    <name et-al-min="4" et-al-use-first="1" delimiter=", " initialize-with="."/>
    </names>
    <names variable="editor translator" delimiter="; ">
    <label form="short" prefix=" " suffix=". " text-case="lowercase" strip-periods="true"/>
    <name et-al-min="4" et-al-use-first="1" delimiter=", " initialize-with="."/>
    </names>
    </group>
    </macro>

    But it doesn`t work...
  • That macro works correctly for me in your style. Could you provide an example of a citation that's not coming out right?
  • Hmm... It`s strange but it really works in case there is only one author (except for editor and translator). If I add more authors, the macro stops working...
  • we need sample data to check this - ideally as bibliontology RDF
  • Here it is:
    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/95616327/Exported%20Items.rdf
  • OK, I can reproduce it failing. The style fails validation in a bunch of ways, but fixing those doesn't address this.
    The problem is connected to how this interacts with the et-al settings of the author-title macro. If you remove those (i.e. the et-al-min="2"...) this works correctly.
    Also moving the second-contributor macro in front of the author makes this works. So my suspicion is that this triggers something via the substitute logic, though it shouldn't.


    Frank will have to take a look.
  • Is a current, fixed-up copy of the style available for use in testing?
  • edited July 31, 2013
    Apologies for the long delay in getting to this. The fault turned out to be due to a missing offset in the code -- it was comparing the et al. parameters in effect for author and container-author, rather than for editor and translator. Since those differ in the test data, the comparison was failing and the names rendered separately.

    A fixed version of the citation processor is available for testing via the processor patch plugin. The only effect of the plugin is to swap in the latest version of the processor: it can be removed at the next Zotero upgrade.
  • doesn't fix this for me yet. Are you sure the right version of the processor is patched in?
  • I'm on the road this weekend (for a conference of Code4Lib Japan, where I will be giving a short presentation on Multilingual Zotero). There might be a day or two's delay, but I'll double-check the test cases with the patch plugin soon and post back.
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