Suggestion/question - improve the forums

The current Zotero forums are extremely bare-bones. They discourage extended discussions, and (imo) make it basically impossible to form an institutional memory about features, suggestions, and more, due to the lack of any kind of categorization, filtering, sorting, etc. Posts from users asking for help are right alongside feature requests, general comments, and everything else. This makes it essentially impossible to stay appraised of the community unless you check the forums hourly.

For a tool that has so many users for whom it is an essential part of their workflow (and may have been so for more than a decade), the lack of a place to spread and store knowledge is a huge missed opportunity.

There are countless good FOSS forum options out there. Why does Zotero not utilize one of these? Even the Github "issues" section is a better way to communicate with other users as-is.

The degree to which these forums are stripped down makes it seem like a conscious decision to encourage users to go elsewhere for everything but troubleshooting requests. However, I haven't been able to find where the "other place" is. I think even an official Discord channel would be an enormous step up from the current situation.

Has this been considered? If so, why was it not implemented?
  • The current forum search is not the best, but a search for "forum categories" would've gotten you this explanation: https://forums.zotero.org/discussion/comment/420237/#Comment_420237

    Categories, metadata, tags — those all just complicate things and require additional moderation time, because people frequently don't actually know whether what they're reporting is a bug, a feature that already exists, something that works differently from what they expect, etc. Just having categories was a mess, and it created more stress and work for everyone.

    Beyond that, there've been 82,487 threads in these forums in the last 16.5 years, or 5,000 a year. Including comments, there've been 444,904 posts — that's 74 a day, every day, for the last 16.5 years. The idea that these forums "discourage extended discussion" or that they're designed to encourage people to go elsewhere is absurd. The core developers and long-time contributors are here literally every day discussing features and suggestions directly with users. From How Zotero Support Works:
    Beyond technical support, the forums allow the entire community — Zotero developers and users alike — to help shape Zotero's future. Many of Zotero's features began with discussions in the forums, and many changes are the direct result of feedback from users there, so we strongly encourage you to get involved.
    Generally, given that this is your first post here, I'd encourage you to actually participate in the forums before passing judgment on them. There are various technical things we plan to improve (Markdown support, images, featured answers, etc.), and we're happy to discuss other features, but the forums really do work pretty well.
  • edited April 16, 2023
    Thanks for your response. Apologies for sounding so callous in my post.

    I saw that discussion. Having not been around for very long I didn't see what the forums were like when they did have categories, but I don't really understand the argument that they were more trouble than they were worth. What made the Zotero forums so different that made that the case?

    Because so many people come here for technical assistance who might not be familiar with how forums typically work, I could see them posting in a bunch of places. However, that seems to me like even more of a reason to segregate the forums into at least two categories: "support," and "discussion," which would slow the new posts feed down and give the discussion posts more time before they are pushed off the first page.

    By "extended discussion," I didn't mean sheer quantity of posts - these forums are absolutely quite active. I was referring to the number of replies on any given post, and the continued discussion on a single post over a long period of time. Because there isn't a tool to sort by quantity of replies or likes (although I am not a big fan of likes), it's difficult to find the posts which in the past many people may have contributed to.

    This seems like the crux of the problem to me. It means that you can't discover popular past threads that may have generated lots of great discussion, the ones where the really useful tips, tricks, workflow advice, plugin discussion, etc. are. They surely exist, but they are lost in the annals of forumhistory unless you know what you're looking for and/or are willing to go through a bunch of search pages to find it. This means most threads don't see comments more than a few days after they're posted.

    This may well be another point where Zotero has intentionally deviated from the typically forum design. However, I think that posts which stay active for months and years are the best kind. It allows for the creation of a narrative, per se, as users participate over time, and results in very useful repositories of knowledge being neatly organized into a single coherent thread.

    I have been lurking on these forums on and off for a few months now, and I still feel that I am "missing out" on a lot of knowledge about Zotero and its development simply by nature of not having been around for long enough to see these threads come and go.

    I can see that the forums are excellent at helping people get support, report bugs, and get general questions answered in a timely manner. I just think that those purposes are only part of the job of a forum.
  • What made the Zotero forums so different that made that the case?
    People would post in one category -- then they'd realize their post was in the wrong category and they posted again in a different one. It's often not possible to know what category something should be in:
    You want to do X in Zotero. Is the fact that you cannot
    - a bug (because it should just work and doesn't for you)
    - a documentation question (because this is already possible, you just need to know how)
    - a feature request (because it really isn't possible)?
    Again, that meant that relevant feature request debates ended up as bug requests and vice versa. I can't count the number of times we told people to just not worry about the category they posted under -- so yes, getting rid of categories was definitely the right thing to do, you'll have to trust those of use who have been there on that one.
    This seems like the crux of the problem to me. It means that you can't discover popular past threads that may have generated lots of great discussion, the ones where the really useful tips, tricks, workflow advice, plugin discussion, etc. are.
    I think that's a reasonable point, but (and this isn't defensiveness: for the CSL project where I have a direct say on infrastructure, we're running a discourse forum) I don't think technology is an easy solution there. There are a fair number of threads that do extend over many years (see e.g. the one for the ODF-scan plugin I co-maintain) but I'm not actually sure that's been that much more helpful in getting people to find the relevant solutions or workflows on page 20 of 25 (say) of that thread.

    A lot of workflows used to be spread via blogs & social media (and you can still find a fair amount of that, but of course blogs have declined in popularity and social media... oh well). Is there actually any complex, long-running software where you think that works? The FLOSS software I probably use most outside Zotero are Firefox and R/R-Studio, both supported by significantly larger organizations, but I wouldn't know how to find specific workflow recommendations beyond asking experts and google for those, either.

    Some of the things that dstillman mentions as feature plans are major annoyances. Decent support for images and markdown would save a *lot* of time and the search is indeed mostly useless for anything older than 2 weeks (I use google site search whenever I'm looking for something further back -- that works reasonably well).

    I think those things would definitely help streamline conversations and make them easier for both newcomers (the screenshots, esp.) and frequent writers (oh, please give me md), and would also make discovery a bit easier -- but even that latter point is a two-sided sword: we do already have a significant (inadvertent) thread-jacking issue here and dstillman spends a fair amount of time splitting off unrelated reports/requests/discussions from existing threads. Better search might ironically make that problem worse.

  • edited April 17, 2023
    I think featured answers — the ability for moderators (and maybe the OP) to flag certain comments in a thread so that they get highlighted and shown at the beginning of the thread — could actually help a lot with knowledge discovery, both for people experiencing a problem and also for people just trying to get up to speed on a long-running discussion.

    But, related to that, I think some of what @al987321 is asking for is actually an anti-pattern. There are significantly diminishing returns in long-running threads: they make finding relevant info very hard, almost no one actually reads them in full, they generate more notification noise for more people, they often don't stay on topic… Much better to isolate good answers that address the opening post and start new threads for new issues.

    An aspect of the Zotero Forums that might not be obvious to a casual observer, particularly someone used to other forums, is the degree to which Zotero developers and a small handful of experts read literally every thread and participate in the vast majority of them, so there are just unequivocally correct answers, standard guidance, or official responses on most topics in a way that you wouldn't find in many other forums. The "institutional memory" is the people who've been making and supporting the software for years, and the documentation we've created in direct response to the forums. There are obviously still topics where there can be value in others sharing workflows, suggesting plugins, etc., particularly when it comes to interacting with other tools, but there's just a lot less of users needing to figure things out on their own here.
    we do already have a significant (inadvertent) thread-jacking issue here and dstillman spends a fair amount of time splitting off unrelated reports/requests/discussions from existing threads. Better search might ironically make that problem worse.
    (Yes, one thing very much on my wish list: a feature that automatically blocks posts to existing threads that contain the phrase "similar problem" or "similar issue". Letting OPs close threads might also help with that.)
  • To me, the only improvement that is almost necessary is to improve the search/query system. I am frequently frustrated by trying to query a phrase. Do I place the two or three words within quotes? That doesn't seem to help. I'd like to use simple Boolean AND, OR, NOT terms. If I had a month to donate, I'd volunteer to develop a simple thesaurus of synonyms (forum posters use different words that have the same meaning). Ignoring language, people frequently ask about something that has a "preferred" Zotero term but the questioner tried to find posts by searching for a different word -- and sometimes words have more than one meaning and there would be great benefit in getting a disambiguation screen (were you searching for this, that, or something else. It might also be helpful to allow for time restrictions -- maybe the default search could be limited to the past n years and dependent upon the recency of the Zotero version. (Is it useful or is it confusing to be presented with posts concerning problems from the days before Zotero was removed from browser-based?)
  • Even the Github "issues" section is a better way to communicate with other users as-is.
    That is not my experience at all. I use github issues as my preferred way to structure comms around my plugins; the forums do a few crucial things which I *wish* GH issues would allow:

    * bringing active discussions into focus by putting them at the top of the list
    * remember which threads have updates since last I visited
    * turn off self-close of issues by users

    without these it is nigh-on impossible to do support with a group of people. I have implemented a bot for GH issues that sort-of addresses the last two points, but it's still a major pain, and I don't have to coordinate with others who addresses what.

    I'd very, very much welcome markdown on the forums though.
  • I do think some extra forum structure might provide more scope for discussing broader topics like "best practices for collections". Because I think most people probably just make up how they organize things as they go along, and are not sure if they are doing things in the most efficient way (which may differ for different applications). If they've inadvertently chosen an inefficient strategy up front, they can be up to their neck in it by the time they realize that things are not working for them (which can be hard to come back from). For example, should one just create as many new collections as one dreams up ... with the result that one eventually ends up with 100's of sub-collections, many layers deep ? Or should one actively try to minimize the number of collections ? Can a protocol for archiving collections that are no longer being used help (for example if one has started a new sub-collection for every paper one writes) ? Should one always place items in a 'top-level'/parent collection first, and only then copy an item to a sub-collection (which means sub-collections can be more safely moved/deleted later without worrying that you might be losing something that only exists in that sub-collection, and of course your main library) ? What are the pros and cons of setting View\Show Items From Subcollections ? Should one devise as many likely useful tag names as possible very early on, so that there is less need for difficult 'catching up' later, ie finding existing items that should have a newly-created tag ? What are useful ways to use saved searches ? Must metadata be carefully checked on every item as it comes automatically into Zotero (difficult when many papers are being saved at once) ... or might some people decide that just cleaning up wrong metadata they see in their reference lists in papers they are writing is less onerous ? What are peoples' workflows for integration with external software like Obsidian, Notion etc (although personally I am sceptical that many of the current 'zettelkasten'/note apps will still exist in 5 years time). etc etc etc

    Thankfully I've avoided most of the sort of problems listed above, partly by accident, and partly by Zotero coming for me decades after boxes of handwritten index cards, followed by some reference storage system on a Vax mainframe that I don't remember, then Reference Manager (DOS), then Endnote. ;)

    Ironically, the fact that the developers are so good at responding quickly to problems here means that other users are perhaps less likely to chime in with suggestions. So if there was a forum section that was not obviously for dealing with problems then there might be wider discussions from more people.

    I also wonder if a plugins forum is necessary. Plugins are both a huge strength of Zotero as well as a common source of problems. While the source of some of the latter might not be obvious to the person who posts a problem symptom, such posts could easily be moved to a plugins forum when that becomes obvious. Likewise feature requests that can actually already be met by an existing plugin could be moved if not in the right place.
  • "The current Zotero forums are extremely bare-bones."

    Good. Never change a running system.
  • The current zotero forums lack a few features that would really, really help (like markdown).

    Please change this running system. Maybe conservatively. But please do.
  • I am fully agree with the suggestions to improve the forum (in particular, I think the ideas comented by @DWL-SDCA are very interesting), and I also understand the disadvantages answered.
    Beyond github issues are a good example or not, I would like to add another kind of forum example, which is stack overflow/exchange communities.

    Beyond that, I believe two features could be added from a conservative point of view, that is, maintaining the current "moderation" system, so keeping the said by @dstillman in the last paragraphs of https://forums.zotero.org/discussion/comment/432830/#Comment_432830
    1. Mark some discussions as closed, I mean, those about bugs or features requests which already have been solved, respectively implemented. If something more about them has to be discussed, I think it should be in a new thread (in line with @dstillman "splitting off unrelated reports/requests/discussions").
    2. Allow tags, which you should give no importance at all, so assuming there are no "wrong" tags at all. These could be editable are not, limited to a few predefined tags (like in SO for most of participants) or free, etc. I suggest this because I believe it is better (for searching) to have tags (with some maybe not the most suitable) than not having tags at all. They shouldn't been moderated at all (maybe here having only a collection of limited predefined tags to be used is suitable; ideally, this collection could be extended after proposal of new tags in the forum or through other media)
  • What also would be good is if the search results for forums do not show every single discussion post to a search, but only the threads that contain the search results, ideally with a count of how many times the search term exists in the thread.
    This would allow the user to more quickly see which threads matter, how many relevant threads there are, but also to more quickly be able to move between different potentially (ir-)relevant threads.
  • edited June 11, 2023
    > Zotero developers and a small handful of experts read literally every thread and participate in the vast majority of them, so there are just unequivocally correct answers, standard guidance, or official responses on most topics in a way that you wouldn't find in many other forums.

    Very true. But if I'm new, I have no idea who to trust. Is this a Zotero dev or just a regular user offering some help? A badge to say this is a Zotero dev, experts, plugin dev would be helpful.

    It's also hard to know if a message I'm reading has a reply somewhere below.

    Also, if the forum has some structure, I think it would help moderation as well? As one mod would be in charge of this section of the forum, etc. and only tag others, if necessary. You can help more people instead of each of you having to read everything?
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