What type for a web site?

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  • dstillman
    I'm pretty sure the vote-up was just for adding the option to the menu.

    But what would the first-run guidance panel be for? We would add the option to the menu, but then show a guidance panel when it was actually selected the first time?
  • aurimas
    The way I picture this, the user would go to add a Web Page item manually and when he clicks on the "Web Page" option, we would pop up a message saying "Did you know that you can easily create webpage items by right-clicking on the web page and selecting "Save Zotero Snapshot"?" (something like that). There would also be a checkbox to never show this again (maybe selected by default maybe not). Once dismissed, the web page item would still be added.
  • dstillman
    OK, yeah, I think that would be reasonable. Are we comfortable with defaulting "Don't show again" to unchecked and having the panels appear repeatedly until the person checks it, as Gracile suggests? Gracile is right that they're probably not very effective if they appear only once.
  • aurimas
    I agree with that. IMO some users may not pay attention to the panel and immediately click OK (if in a hurry or something), so I am in favor of unchecked by default.
  • adamsmith
    so I am in favor of unchecked by default.
    +1
  • bwiernik
    The proposed popup solution is exactly what is needed to achieve the devs' goal of training efficient usage here.
  • scoee1
    +1 on the unchecked by default. So long as it's not the "Clippy" itself LOL. Nor can it be a superhero with a Zotero logo on his shirt. But, I digress.

    And +1 for the green plus menu having the same options listed as the one that displays in the entry detail panel.

    Forgive me...I'm about to stand on a soapbox but it's a small one.

    That being said, I want to reiterate what nsm9 said about the positives of Zotero. I've also been "selling" ("pimping?") Zotero whenever possible. I can't even imagine what putting together my dissertation proposal would be like if I didn't have it to use. That being said, I get that users of technology can be (as my sister says), "prickly" about making suggestions/alerts. Believe me, I know.

    In some of the posts above, though, it is clear that you have a user base that appreciates what you've provided and cares enough to provide alerts, suggestions, etc. I would be part of that fan base.

    Like some of my contemporaries, I don't pretend to understand the breadth and depth of time and effort to create this great product. However, there's a lot of research (sorry...I can't use Zotero to drop in a bibliography here *grin*) that speaks to the benefits of a spirited and positive discussion about continuous improvement.

    Quite bluntly, my point is I got the initial impression, true or only perceived, that the Zotero team was being attacked and projected a sense of being defensive, essentially shutting down the collaborative nature of the discussion thread. Fortunately, the discussion ended on a positive, collaborative, and solution-centered note. It restored my confidence in the future quality of Zotero.



    I am not asking for a retort nor +1's to this post. I guess having written a boat load about Appreciative Inquiry for my dissertation (and I'm far from done), I thought I would live what I write.

    Ok, I'm done. Hope I didn't force anyone to read this and consider it time they'll never get back *grin*.
  • mctdavatar
    I'll add that it would be logical to assume the "Item types" on the "info" tab right hand column would match the "more" pulldown under the green plus sign.
    Also as a Chrome user, I was confused when i didn't see the "Z" icon in the address field, even when i read this thread on the "cite web page" solution.
    Sorted now.

    great app, i pimp it and help colleagues whenever they run into problems. I am a 6 month user btw,
    Thanks Dev Team!!
  • jonneville
    The problem is that there is NOT always a "simple, one-click way" to add web pages. This is not so rare, either. I'm currently on CDC's website (a very cite-worthy site) and about half their pages so far do not trigger the simpler option (example:http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/laboratory/antigenic.htm). Note that this page is in their section for professionals. I don't think developers should worry that people won't realize there's an easier way. I've been using it for all of 6 hours and it was painfully obvious how easier just about everything is (good job, btw!). But it was a little frustrating when I got stuck on the web page above. Dag92821's blog post workaround seemed to work for me. Apologies for weighing in late, but I figured I'd add one more voice to the I'm-in-favor-of-adding-it-to-reference-type-list crowd. :)
  • dstillman
    No, jonneville — you're confused too, and wasting your own time. You can save web pages that don't have translators using either the Create Web Page Item from Current Page button (in Zotero for Firefox) or by right-clicking on the webpage and choosing the save option there (in Zotero for Firefox or Chrome/Safari with the connectors). If you're creating a Zotero item for any live web page by creating an item manually, you're doing it wrong. That's the whole point of this.

    We've said above we'll probably add this option with a pop-up warning, but pretty much every single person who's complained about this has been doing exactly the thing we've been trying to help them avoid.
  • adamsmith
    edited August 27, 2014
    But the point that we've been trying to make is that there _is_ a simple option for webpages without Zotero icon in the URL bar:
    Right-click-->Save as Zotero Snapshot in Chrome/Safari
    and
    Right-click --> Zotero--> "Create New Webpage Item" or the "Create New Webpage Item" button (which can be set to a keyboard shortcut in Zutilo) in Firefox.

    Both work on the page you link to.

    Much faster than creating a webpage item by hand. (Though the above outlined solution is still generally agreed on, someone just has to do it).
  • jonneville
    Hrmm...well I AM confused, because no such options appear when I right click in the URL bar or elsewhere. I downloaded the standalone version and the firefox plugin. All it gives me in Firefox is a big "Z" in the upper right, which just seems to open the standalone version. I will have to investigate further later...must move on to other refs. LIke I said I've been using this for all of 6 hours, after one 5 min youtube tutorial, I'm basically sailing through this. So seriously, kudos. I will train myself more later. But... considering the weeks it took me to learn RefMan/Endnote (both of which I seem to forget how to use in between publications), this Zotero stuff rocks.
  • dstillman
    No, right-click on the web page background itself, not the URL bar.
  • adamsmith
    (or open Zotero in Firefox (with Standalone closed) and click on the icon between the green plus sign and the magic wand. That does the same).
  • jonneville
    Done! I had tried right-clicking in the page content before, but missed the Zotero item in the menu when I did. Saw it this time. Thanks!
  • beogl
    Another option: Use the Readability add-on in your browser. Choose "Read Now" and then save the page to Zotero.

    This will save the page in the "abstract" field. So you have to edit that field as required to avoid copyright issues. (If it is a private library there are no such problems as far as I know.)
  • aurimas
    edited August 28, 2014
    This will save the page in the "abstract" field
    Not entirely sure how this would happen, since the official Zotero translator for Readability doesn't populate the abstract field at all (do you have a custom translator?), but if it did, I would be concerned about breaking sync by exceeding the maximum syncable length of that field (Dan would have to comment on what that number actually is). What would be the advantage here over taking a snapshot?

    If we ignore the abstract bit, though, I don't see how this would result in better metadata than the right-click option and it certainly doesn't seem more convenient.
  • adamsmith
    it can result in better metadata, since Readability does some basic parsing of the site structure and we're trying to take advantage of that.
  • beogl
    A snapshot takes the whole page with images. Using Readability you just get the main text.

    Hm, maybe it is my version of the translator, yes. (What is the easiest way to see if I have changed a translator?)
  • adamibaker
    I love Zotero, but I don't understand why the developers have such heels-dug-in arguments about such obvious usability flaws as the absence of the "Web Page" option from the More submenu of the "green arrow" menu. The insistence that users adapt to an idiosyncratic mental model is baffling.

    For instance, this feature would be useful when the Zotero connector plugins for browsers like Chrome don't work. (Pages such as http://brcatool.stanford.edu/brca.html)
  • aurimas
    That's where you would right-click the page and select to save a snapshot to Zotero. I think we've reached consensus that the option will be reintroduced with a guidance message, but it just hasn't been done yet.
  • adamsmith
    edited October 4, 2014
    For instance, this feature would be useful when the Zotero connector plugins for browsers like Chrome don't work. (Pages such as http://brcatool.stanford.edu/brca.html)
    but to re-iterate what Dan is saying above: This is exactly why developers took this option out. Like almost everyone asking about this, you're simply not aware of the option to create a webpage item from any webpage from the connectors (via right-click as aurimas says). So by having you come here to complain, we have saved you years of using a super inefficient workflow (copy the URL in Chrome, go to Zotero, create webpage item, copy-paste the URL, manually enter the accessed date, manually enter the title, find some way to archive the webpage) where a one-click solution is available.
  • adamibaker
    But we can manually create ANY other kind of reference directly from that menu. Having a more convenient option doesn't negate the value of a less convenient option. (Again, it's forcing an idiosyncratic workflow and breaking an otherwise well-enforced consistency in the create menu.) It's ok to have both. :)
  • adamibaker
    I might add that all the wasted time spent (obviously by others as well as I) searching high and low on Google and these forums, the needing to read through the thread to understand what's going on, likely outweighs the potential future benefit in time saved… had the Web Page option been where expected, anyone who felt frustrated and also taxed by the confusion would have been spared.

    Pretty much usability 101 and you have plenty of evidence to support restoring the option. It'd perhaps be worth including a first-time UI when someone uses the manual method—even just a dialog box—that suggests the future, faster way. ("Did you know you can right-click on any web page? … etc. etc.)
  • aurimas
    edited October 4, 2014
    As I said above, this will be restored in the future, just hasn't been done yet.
  • sharonstern
    Hopefully this comment doesn't trigger a response from the devs informing me that I'm using the software "wrong", but ... it's disappointing that this thread has been open for three years and the software _still_ doesn't make clear to me how to use it. Like others above, I found this thread via a Google search as I was trying to understand why my newly-installed Zotero Standalone + Chrome plugin wouldn't let me save a webpage. I used the Firefox plugin for years, and it's trained me well to click the button that lets me create a new item from the current webpage.

    Sure, right-clicking on the page is handy, and maybe I would have preferred it in Firefox had I realized. Opening Zotero in a pane in the bottom of your browser isn't a great user experience. On the other hand, neither is saving a webpage outside of Zotero then switching to Standalone so I can move it to the correct folder. Sometimes right-clicking silently fails. You can save manually in that case, but it's really clunky, since you're actively trying to keep me from doing that.

    I think Zotero's a useful tool and hope you'll fix these usability issues. They're not window dressing, they're fundamental to the product.
  • dstillman
    edited May 19, 2016
    There's not really anything more to add to this. We've said repeatedly in this thread that we'll add the manual option with guidance explaining the better way, but it's such a terribly inefficient way to add a webpage that it's far from a priority. The priority for usability is changing the Chrome/Safari plugins to mirror the new save button in Firefox that can save any webpage in the most complete way possible, without needing to (discover and) use the right-click option. (Update (2016): The new save button is now available in Chrome.) That new button may also gain a drop-down menu that lets you choose the target collection directly without switching back to Standalone.

    But, yes, copying and pasting the title, URL, and access date into a manually created item is absolutely using the software wrong, in our opinion. If the webpage-saving function from Chrome silently fails, that's a separate bug that you should report.
  • JohnHMoore
    +1 for the green plus menu having the same options listed as the one that displays in the entry detail panel. I know it is not the most efficient way for users to add web pages but for new users it looks like a bug. If the program elegantly referred a new user to the plugin it might make sense but without that it is just confusing/inconsistent.

    There are cases when the manual adds make more sense than going to a web page and using the plug in- e.g. cutting a pasting from another document or listing a (now) obsolete/defunct web site come to mind.

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