What type for a web site?

beogl

If I want to add an entry pointing to a web site like this:

anthrozoology.org | Research in Human-Animal Interaction
http://www.anthrozoology.org/

What "zotero type" would you suggest for it?

adamsmith

why not website?

beogl

Because I can not find that type... ;-)

In Zotero standalone (very nice that it is released by the way) I can't find anything like that. In the "green +-menu" there is nothing like it. In the item panel I can find "web page" but not "web site".

adamsmith

Web Page is what I meant. It's in the green + menu right below journal article (only in standalone - in Zotero for FF you're supposed to directly create a webpage item as a new item from the current page.)

beogl

I can't find it in Zotero standalone 3.0.3 in the green + menu right, see here:

http://picpaste.com/pics/no-web-site-xiYqtMGr.1329685948.png

"web page" also is not really correct here. I want to point to the site (but I have of course to accept the terminology used).

adamsmith

huh - it's up there for me (where you have blogpost etc), but it looks like that's an adaptive menu. You'll have to manually change the item type then (or use right-click --> Create Zotero snapshot from a browser with connector installed).
As for the difference between website and page - yes, they're different, but I don't think they are ever cited differently, which means that one item type is enough for both (remember that bibliographic distinction is the main criterium for different item types - if it were for me (and maybe Zotero's devs in retrospect), item types such as blog post wouldn't exist, either.)

beogl

How can it be an adaptive menu in Zotero standalone?

I think Zotero is not only for citing. I add useful things to our common database to make it easier for those who care to find some information. Then I think item types such as "web site", "blog post" or "blog" actually makes a lot of sense.

adamsmith

"How can it be an adaptive menu in Zotero standalone?"
I'm not sure I understand the question. I assume the five item types right below the green cross adapt automatically to usage patterns. Those types of auto-adaptive menus are common. I can't say 100% that's the case, but it's the only reason I can see why they'd look different on your and my version of standalone.

"I think Zotero is not only for citing."
absolutely, but the number of item types that are potentially useful for _someone_ is limit-less (an art historians may want image, sculpture, drawing, painting, print, installation; a musicologist opera, orchestral work, solo work etc.; a political scientist UN-resolution, EU directive, WTO treaty etc. There would be no end). Hence we restrict item types to those bibliographically necessary and suggest tags and collections to order and structure libraries. As you may know, more visual, color-coded tags (along the lines of gmail) will be in Zotero 3.5.

beogl

Ah, I see what you mean. That would be a rather strange adaptive menu in my opinion since it would mean entries could disappear and not be found again if I do not use them ... ;-)

adamsmith

beogl - I agree that's odd for webpage. I was surprised to see it show up at all - all other entries should appear under the more options list so you can still get to them - it just takes a tiny bit longer.

dstillman

It wasn't supposed to show up there. Fixed.

Greg

web page doesn't appear under 'more' in my case in standalone 3.0.2. Why is that? How am I supposed to add a web page item in standalone?

dstillman

web page doesn't appear under 'more' in my case in standalone 3.0.2. Why is that?

For the same reason it doesn't appear in Zotero for Firefox: that most people using it would be doing so because they didn't know there was a better way.

If you have the Chrome/Safari plugin, right-click on a webpage in Chrome/Safari and select "Save Zotero Snapshot from Current Page". This will be moved to a visible button in a future version. Update (2016): Webpage saving has been moved to the save button in Chrome.

Otherwise, create an item and change the type to "Web Page". You can also use the shortcut key for a new item (Ctrl-Alt-N or Cmd-Shift-N) and press W or use the arrow keys or mouse to select "Web Page".

We could add "Web Page" to the New Item drop-down in Standalone, but given that it's still possible and better to do it from the Chrome/Safari plugins, the original justification for not including it still applies.

beogl

I find it very confusing that not all types are listed in the New Item drop-down in Standalone. What is the reason for not having all types in this list?

dstillman

All types other than "Web Page" appear. See above.

beogl

You mean "that most people using it ..."?

In that case I disagree. It is just confusing here. It does not learn me anything that it is missing since it rather prevents me from knowning that there is such a type as "web page" at all.

dstillman

You should almost never need to add a Web Page item by hand—if you're doing so for anything other than a site that's no longer accessible, you're wasting your time. Had you seen that option in the menu, you very easily might have assumed that was the proper way to add a Web Page item and continued to do so.

On the rare occasions that it's necessary to create a Web Page item manually, the workaround is trivial. We consider this a reasonable tradeoff.

This is mainly an issue right now because the Chrome/Safari option is buried in the context menu, and as I said, we'll be moving that to a more visible button in a future release, which will make discovery easier.

But this has been the case for years. The only difference now is that Standalone doesn't have a "Create New Item from Current Page" button as Zotero for Firefox does, but the functionality still exists through the Chrome/Safari plugins. Whether the absence of the button changes the calculation, I'm not sure.

less

As a new user, I was confused that "Web Page" was not available as an Item Type. I determined what the available item types were by clicking the green button, and then More. I assumed that to be a complete, alphabetically sorted, list of the Item Types available to me. When I was manually moving items over into my new Zotero Tool, it wasn't a choice. Odd.

And then, in the course of some regular work, at a web page (in Chrome), I right click, save snapshot. Hmmm, now I go over to Zotero and see THAT item has a Web Page Item type. Strange.

Then I find that I can change existing items from whatever they are, to a Web Page, I just can't manually create a new item of that type. It seems odd.

It then made me wonder what OTHER types of Items are only available via some other means? This green button is broken? Do I have a bad install? Is it an error in the program? Am I confused? Let me spend some time looking around and investigating.

So...please just add ALL of the available Item Types to the green button "more" list. It will save confusion, time, and dismay.

adamsmith

See the explanations above. Having the webpage option in the plus menu leads people to use Zotero in a wrong/inefficient way.
Yes it's a trade-off, but on balance I'm pretty confident that the benefits of the current design outweigh its downsides, your experience notwithstanding.

Gracile

@devs: I think that a first-run guidance panel would be useful. It would appear when clicking on the "More" button.
[by the way, those guidance panels are a very good idea but they should appear more than once - a "don't show again" button wouldn't transform them into the annoying MS-Word assistant "Clippy" - e.g. the quick format guidance panel is hard to remember if you see it only once.]

ademoor

I second @beogl and @less: developers should not assume "they know best" how to use these types. There are many different ways of using Zotero. I for instance don't want to make web clips, just describe links for reference purposes. It is now very confusing in standalone that you first have to create an item, then change the type. So, please, take your user feedback seriously. Thanks.

adamsmith

@ademoor - devs don't assume they know best. The current behavior was introduced as a reaction to frequent misunderstandings by users.
It's you guys who assume that your experience represents all users.

ademoor

You may want to consider that the current solution is not the optimal one yet, given that committed Zotero users experience new misunderstandings.

maevepotter

I have to agree with @ademoor. I had to search to find out why there was no webpage type in the drop down menu. It does not seem to be an intuitive solution.

dag92821

I had the same issue and finally understood the solution (optimum or not). So here are concise instructions for search engines and others in the "newbie" boat:

To add a "web page" in Zotero StandAlone with no connectors or browser addons:

- Click Green+ and select "Blog Post" (for now)
- On the right pane, click the "Item Type" field and scroll down to select "Web Page"
- Click the "Title" field and update.
- Click the "URL" field and enter the URL.

This will effectively give you a Zotero version of a "bookmark" but with meta-data (abstract, type, date, etc).

Enjoy!

beogl

I just use "Save Zotero snapshot from current page" and then delete the snapshot from Zotero. A little bit inconvinient, of course... ;-)

cmt29

Hi. Can I resurrect this discussion and ask that the web page item type be added to the new item menu?

I understand the arguments both sides above, but wish to add one further scenario: the scenario in which Chromium extensions stop working (as is currently the case with some versions of Chromium under Ubuntu). The workaround is uneccesary and awkward.

If the devs are really concerned about educating users to add web pages the 'correct' way, then why couldn't you add a first-time use pop-up tip to remind them that using a browser connector is more efficient?

I do not think it is intuitive or helpful to have web page missing from the new item menu.

Thanks.

nsm9

I understand the intention to encourage users to create web page items in the most efficient way possible, but I still think it would be useful if the "add item" (green plus sign) menu had all the item types for two reasons:

1) I am building a library from references cited previously in our research center's publications over the past 10 years, and this has been frustrating for me because sometimes I need to manually enter a web page that no longer exists, which means I can't take a snapshot with the chrome extension or with Firefox.

2) I really like Zotero and am trying to "sell" Zotero to my colleagues as a more user-friendly citation manager than Refman, our previous citation manager. I am now training the rest of the staff to use Zotero, and although I have showed everyone efficient ways to enter references (straight from Firefox/chrome), some people prefer to enter them in manually, for whatever reason, and several people have approached me with the issue. I have to tell them to add a reference of any type with the "add item" green plus-sign button, and then right-click on the "item type" field and select web page, because web page shows up in that menu. It's these quirks that make people feel overwhelmed and shy away from the new technology.

At least for the way I and other people in my office use Zotero, it would be less confusing to have all item type menus have all of the item types, including web page. Yes, the way it is could force users to figure out how to use Zotero more efficiently, but I also feel like more options and consistency in the menus couldn't hurt, right?

This is obviously only a minor annoyance, and I came here initially to alert you, since I assumed it was not intentional, but when I found this discussion, I figured I would add my two-cents.

tobidelbruck

I wasted 30 minutes trying to find this out, why there was no item for web site or URL. I installed the chrome plugin some time ago but did not even realize there was a right-click item....

VOTE UP

dstillman

tobidelbruck: Your argument is that we should add a menu item to prevent you from wasting 30 minutes trying to figure out why it wasn't there so that instead you could waste many minutes a day for days, months, or years, until you realized that there was actually a better, one-click way to add webpages?

aurimas

I think the vote-up is for

I think that a first-run guidance panel would be useful. It would appear when clicking on the "More" button.
[by the way, those guidance panels are a very good idea but they should appear more than once - a "don't show again" button wouldn't transform them into the annoying MS-Word assistant "Clippy" - e.g. the quick format guidance panel is hard to remember if you see it only once.]

which I personally think is a good idea for more than just this function.

Edit: though not the "more" button. It would appear when trying to add web page items only