Book section pages AND number-of-pages in book: Journal of Cetacean Research and Management

Hi folks,
I've hit a wall in making a distributable .CSL for the Journal of Cetacean Research and Management. For Book-Sections / Chapters, they require not only the Pages of the chapter, but also the total "number-of-pages" of the entire book (they even want you to state the Roman-numberals of pretext... but that's another issue). The problem I'd like help with is how can I include both chapter pages AND the number of pages in the book, when there isn't a "number-of-pages" field in Zotero for the Item Type "Book Section?"

Another question: obviously I can do this manually, but if I fail to make a perfect .csl, do you think I should distribute it on the online repository if its just going to mess others up???

Here is an example of the proper style for book chapters:
Mitchell, E.D. 1974. Present status of northwest Atlantic fin and other whale stocks. pp. 108-69. In: W.E. Schevill (ed.) The Whale Problem: A Status Report. Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts. i-viii+419pp.

And here is what I'm generating with my current .csl:
Carlin, B.P., Clark, J.S., and Gelfand, A.E. 2006. Elements of hierarchical Bayesian inference. pp. 3–24. In: J. S. Clark and A. E. Gelfand (eds.) Hierarchical Modelling for the Environmental Sciences: Statistical Methods and Applications. Oxford University Press, New York, NY.

(The later is missing the number-of-pages, and the roman numerals)

  • edited July 4, 2012
    update: I just saw the responses in this similar forum:

    ... so, apparently this is not possible. I'd add my voice to the calls for the inclusion of number-of-pages in the book-section type.
  • you're right, that can't currently be done.

    If we had a # of pages field for book sections in Zotero, this could be done (CSL can do this w/o any problems), the problem is that I don't see how we can communicate to users what that field is for. The item refers to the book section, so intuitively # of Pages would refer to the chapter, not the whole book.
    So this might have to wait until we get hierarchical item types, where a chapter item can be declared as part of a book item - depends on how Dan & others feel about the issue.

    Yes, absolutely put an imperfect style (especially with such a minor imperfection) up. You should make a note in the style - like
  • "So this might have to wait until we get hierarchical item types, where a chapter item can be declared as part of a book item"
    I'd really like this feature, not only to solve minor issues like the above, but also for a slick, intuitive management of citations. Currently, I'm relating chapters in books with each other via the "Related" tab--nice but clunky. That being said, well before such a revolution occurs, I think an extra field for the Book Section type would be relatively harmless to implement and effective.
    the problem is that I don't see how we can communicate to users what that field is for.
    You may want to petition the community about this. I think the current nondescript "pages" is ambiguous and confusing at first glance (is it the chapter pages or total book pages?). As an anglo, I think a field named "total pages" or "book pages" would be clearly distinguishable from "pages".

    Thanks to all for contributing to Zotero,
  • FYI,

    In the meantime, as a (bad) workaround, I save the number of pages in the "# of Volumes" field.
  • edited July 5, 2012
    @Gracile: Wow, I really like that screen shot of the book-section + book info. Can't wait to see it happen!

    Here is my work around (for the Journal of Ceteacean Research and Management, which includes the book pages as 123pp.): I used the "extra" field (referred to as the "note" in the .csl engine). This seems to be always blank in my references, so up for grabs. Here is my csl macro (which could be tinkered to use "# of volumes" as Gracile suggests:

    <macro name="bookpages">
    <if type="chapter" match="any">
    <if variable="note">
    <text variable="note" suffix="pp."/>

    To use this, you copy and paste the above anywhere near the top of the csl (avoiding inserting within another macro definition). Then call the macro at its appropriate position within the bibliography and layout containers (myself, I put it at the end towards the "access" reference)

    <bibliography hanging-indent="true" et-al-min="20" et-al-use-first="20" entry-spacing="0">
    <key macro="author"/>
    <key variable="issued"/>
    <layout suffix="">
    <text macro="bookpages" suffix=" "/>

    Of course the bookpages needs to be stored in the "extra" field in zotero.

  • @Gracile - oops. I guess I can't remember everything ;-) thanks for the reminder. I still like your GUI suggestion and that'd solve the issue I raise above (and Avram raised a year ago...)

    yeah, that's the way to go for a workaround. I'd ask you to submit a style to repository without this, though:

    In general I don't feel good about having hacks like this (no offense - you use a hack bc. that's the only thing available) in public styles, but more importantly, the styles aren't just used by Zotero and we don't know what other products store in the field the map to "note".
  • Has there has been a fix of this issue since this question was posted a year and a half ago? I also need to include the total number of pages in a book, in addition to the page range, when I cite a chapter of a book. I don't see a way to do that in the current version (zotero 4.0.16)
  • Thanks adamsmith. In that case, are we close to being able to have hierarchical items in Zotero, e.g., a chapter can be declared as part of a book?
  • no, not even remotely - though if you read a little further down where Gracile chimes in, we don't really need hierarchical item types for this - it just needs a display revamp. That has a good chance of happening sooner, but also unlikely in the next couple of months.
  • Thanks. Having the total number of book pages is quite a common requirement for many journals and proceedings in my field. It will be very helpful to be able to have this capability. I'll keep an eye for it in the future versions.
  • As far as I understand, there is still the problem that Zotero is not able to handle separately the page numbers of a book chapter and the total number of pages in the book. At least I couldn't find a way to add this info into an entry created through the "Book Section" command. Or does anyone have a solution for this very annoying deficit in the otherwise well-functioning program?
  • You can add this information to the Extra field for a Book Section like this:
    Number of pages: 645

    This will get picked up when generating references for the styles that ask for it.
  • Many thanks for the rapid answer!
  • Is this fixed in the next release (current production 5.0.58)?

    I'd like to see #pages for both the "Book" and "Book Section" types too.

    PS - When switching from type "Book Section" to "Book" the book pages should get copied, and the "Book Section" pages lost. (unlike the current title problem...)
  • This won't happen any time super soon, no. (As discussed above, it only makes sense in line with a right-panel redesign, which won't happen before Zotero moves to a different application platform, which likely will still be a good while).
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