Punctuation inside quotation marks

TravisR

I'm currently having a problem with some of my citations.

Zotero Standalone 3.0b2.1
Style: chicago-fullnote-bibliography-no-ibid.csl

When I cite multiple manuscripts in a single citation, it displays:
Author, "Title", Date, Location-In-Archive, Archive; . . .

After the initial citation it uses the short form:
Author, "Title"; Author2, "Title2."

I have tried everything I can think of to get the punctuation inside the quotation marks and I cannot make it work. Ideas?

adamsmith

Did that work for you before? What language is your operating system?

Which punctuation are you referring to? The comma between title and date in the long form of the citation should definitely be in the quotation marks.

The semicolon should follow the closing quotation mark, i.e just as in your example (see CMoS 6.9 and 6.10 respectively).

TravisR

Thank you for your reply. I thought that they semicolon was right, but I knew the comma was not.

My locale for Firefox, Zotero, and my MacBook are all set as en-US and I went into about:config in Zotero Standalone, searched for locale and made sure everything was set to en-US, too. As far as I know it has always worked like this. I just finally got to a point where I decided I needed to try to fix it and encountered much more trouble than I thought I would.

adamsmith

start by downloading the most recent version of ZSA - 3.0b3.2

then check how this looks in the test pane (csledit), accessible from the advanced tab of the preferences.
This is a specific problem in your install. In general Zotero and the CMoS styles do this correctly.

TravisR

Again, thanks for your help. Now running ZSA - 3.0b3.2. No change.

Articles display correctly. For instance:

George Tays, “The Surrender of Monterey by Governor Nicolas Gutierrez November 5, 1836: An Account from Unpublished Correspondence,” California Historical Society Quarterly 15, no. 4 (December 1, 1936): 338.

However, things listed as manuscripts still do not work correctly:

Thomas Savage, “Report of Labors in Archives and Procuring Material for History of California: And Related Material”, 1879, MSS C-E 191, Bancroft Library, University of California at Berkeley

I have experimented with changing an offending entry to other types of documents and from what I can tell it won't work if I use one where the date directly follows the title. So if I change it to a magazine article it continues to display ", 1879 unless I add something (like a magazine title) between the title and the date.

fbennett

The punctuation-in-quote attribute is not set in chicago-fullnote-bibliography-no-ibid.csl. The default is "false", so punctuation outside of the quotes is normal, unless the option is set with a value of "true".

http://citationstyles.org/downloads/specification.html#locale-options

It looks like the style harvard1-unisa-gbfe.csl (Harvard Reference format (Unisa / GBFE) (Author-Date) (de)) has it set to "true", so you could look there for an example of how to set it up.

(Edit: just in case, http://www.zotero.org/styles/harvard1-unisa-gbfe)

(Edit #2: my bad, sorry. The English locale has this set to true, doesn't it. I'll check into the issue with this style.)

TravisR

Thank you for the recommendation. Unfortunately I have already tried setting that attribute (but I just tried it again anyway) and had no luck.

fbennett

I've taken a look at the style code. The processor is meant to handle this case, but something seems to be amiss. I'll spare the technical details (which might sound more like raving than a lucid explanation), but the Chicago styles are coded in a way that makes this operation particularly difficult to get right. It might be a little while before I'm able to find time for a fix.

fbennett

I've done some quick checking, and it looks like the punctuation will be adjusted correctly with almost any pattern of coding other than the one used by the style. With a hat tip to my senpai Andrea Rosatto, I think it's time to start looking at cleaning up styles, rather than catching these problems in the processor. I've done this for five legal styles already in the CitationStylist project. I'll take a look at this instance of Chicago soon, to see if I can tidy it up without doing too much damage.

mbruffey

Oh yes! If you can please fix Chicago! Bravo!! I use the full note with bib. Many of us live and die by it, and its punctuation output has been messed up forever. Thank you! Thank you! Mark

adamsmith

Frank - could you specify the problem in a bit more detail so I can fix CMoS?

fbennett

It's all those affix joins; they need to be moved to delimiters throughout the style. It's a big job, and will need a round of feedback after the changes (for each style) to be sure the output doesn't change.

The processor already does some refactoring of affix punctuation (introduced to cope with the Chicago styles in the first instance), but there are limits. I looked at the code again, and concluded that it's all too delicate to risk touching it further. The styles will eventually need to be fixed.

I've started working on one of the Chicago styles now (note with bibliography, I think). When it passes the test that's been failing, I'll put up the code so you can take a look at the scope of the changes.

fbennett

@adamsmith: I've put up a pull request for a modified version of Chicago Fullnote with Bibliography (no ibid). I've given the new version its own name and ID for the time being, so it can be tested before deployment. I haven't checked the reported issues with quote/punctuation placement, but this version at least gives the processor a better chance to get it right.

Apart from that, the revised version should not throw up extraneous punctuation with any combination of input.

fbennett

@adamsmith, as background, the affixes were cleaned up by validating the style in Emacs nXML with the MLZ extended schema (CSL 1.0mlz1). That schema bans leading spaces on prefixes and trailing spaces on suffixes everywhere but in cs:names and cs:date, so nXML flags every suspect join in the style. (The schema also demands that certain variables be rendered via cs:number, but most of the affected variables can be rendered as number in CSL 1.0 as well, and the processor will cope.)

Once everything is flagged, it's just a matter of working through the style, moving punctuation to groups, adding groups where necessary, and adding filter macros (the new "*-join-with-* macros) so that the existing Chicago macros can be repurposed in the new layout. I put in 3-4 hours on this first style, I guess; others might go a bit faster now that we've figured out the pattern of changes. Monotonous work, though, and the sort of thing that could be sped along with an economic incentive or two.

In any case, let's hope it works!

fbennett

For folks that would like to see punctuation and punctuation-in-quotes issues cleared up in the Chicago styles, here is a copy of Chicago Fullnote w/Bibliography, refactored to apply delimiters correctly:

https://gist.github.com/1623317

This is meant to behave exactly the same as the current CMOS Fullnote w/Bib, but there are a lot of changes in the code. Please test it and post back to this thread on your experiences. If this does indeed produce better results, the same refactoring strategy can be applied to other styles in the Chicago family.

mbruffey

Thanks for all that work. I threw a bunch of stuff at a single note. Looks very good, tho' I was not able to achieve perfect punctuation when adding text before/after entries--could be my fault (see after "analysis" line 2-3 [want a comma], and line 6-7 after "88"--can I insert a comma there?). We need to see what the bibliography looks like, too.

1See Garth Mervin Rosell, “Charles Grandison Finney and the Rise of the Benevolence Empire” (PhD diss., University of Minnesota, 1971), 66–69 for the best analysis,; and William Charles Walzer, “Charles Grandison Finney and the Presbyterian Revivals of Central and Western New York” (PhD diss., University of Chicago, 1949), 77 for a close second. But that’s not all you should consult. See also James E. Johnson, “The Life of Charles Grandison Finney” (PhD diss., Syracuse University, 1959), 88; And even further, Allen C. Guelzo, “An Heir or a Rebel? Charles Grandison Finney and the New England Theology,” Journal of the Early Republic 17 (1997): 11; Marianne Perciaccante, Calling Down Fire: Charles Grandison Finney and Revivalism in Jefferson County, New York, 1800-1840 (Albany, N.Y.: State University of New York Press, 2003), 22; David L. Turner, “A Critique of Charles G. Finney’s Theology” (presented at the Theology Night, Baptist Bible College, Clarks Summit, Pa., 1977), 186; Jerald C. Brauer, “Editor’s Preface,” in Regeneration and Morality: A Study of Charles Finney, Charles Hodge, John W. Nevin, and Horace Bushnell, Chicago Studies in the History of American Religion 7 (Brooklyn, N.Y.: Carlson Pub., 1991), xii.

Let me clarify about the bib. When I clicked to create it, I was informed that the style did not contain capabilities for bib generation, or something to that effect. Using latest LibreOffice under Ubuntu 11.10.

adamsmith

yes, no can do currently on the analysis,; issue.

mbruffey

We are getting attention and improvements. That's good! I, for one, am willing to work around the minor issues.

fbennett

Try switching to another style, then back. That might clear the bibliography glitch; it works for me here.

fbennett

The issue with analysis,; is general processor behavior. I'll try to fix it soon to handle this case better.

mbruffey

fbennett, bib operating properly after following your rec. above. Thx, Mark

fbennett

Are there suggestions for which punctuation marks should override the inter-cite delimiter when they occur at the end of a suffix or the beginning of a prefix? I'm now looking at the spot where the change will be needed, and so far I have just comma (,) and period (.) on my list.

fbennett

After running some tests, I realized that comma (,) is really the only character that can safely be used to suppress the inter-cite delimiter. The other candidates (.!?) can all appear as terminal punctuation on a citation element, which with the current coding pattern might incorrectly suppress the delimiter. So comma is the only trigger in the new code (which I've just checked in). If that limitation is too severe, we can revisit this later.

fbennett

@adamsmith: If the refactored styles are working correctly, when you have time it would be great if the pull request for Chicago Full Note with Bibliography and Chicago Full Note with Bibliography (no ibid) could be accepted, and the new code substituted for the existing Chicago counterparts. They will be more robust in the face of missing fields, and seem to handle quote/punctuation swapping correctly.

adamsmith

Frank - sorry for the delay on that. The only reason I haven't pulled this yet is that I'm not sure it makes sense to put this up as an additional style - I'm pretty confident in your ability to do this right, so I would just have this replace the existing one right away.

stefan.xyz

I ammended the IEEE style with
<style-options punctuation-in-quote="false"/>
but keep getting the comma within the quotes.
It works fine inside
http://steveridout.com/csl/visualEditor/
but with Zotero "Create Bib from selected item.." or Word-Extension I get the commas.
I have Zotero 3.0m291 with Multilingual Addon (MLZ).

I would post the altered style, but do not grasp how to do it.

Thanks
Stefan

Gracile

Are you sure you've installed your updated style and selected it in Zotero?

You can post your style on http://gist.github.com (save it as a public gist and post the link here).

adamsmith

to get the code for your style in the visual editor, click on "Code Editor" at the top right. You will then see the code at the bottom right of the screen, select the whole think and post it as directed by Gracile.

stefan.xyz

OK, altered style is uploaded here:
https://gist.github.com/4109885
Found the following: The "punctuation-in-quote=false" option is overridden by the UI-Language setting in Zotero-Preferences-Language.
In case of UI-language=English, the "punctuation-in-quote=false" is not applied. In case of UI-language=German, it becomes valid.
CSL-Language was set to "English-US" with both trials.

Bug or feature - I don't know?

Rintze

Your style at https://gist.github.com/4109885 doesn't have a default-locale attribute on the root cs:style element, which is how the "CSL-Language" is set. How did you set the locale of the style?

fbennett

In MLZ, there is a "CSL" selection in the Languages preferences menu, and it has no effect -- and the citation style follows the UI language instead. Since the symptoms reflect this bug so closely, perhaps this is with MLZ?

In any case, I'll take a look at the CSL language bug in MLZ soon -- it certainly should be possible to set the UI and bibliography languages separately.