Not using Ibid if citation is first on a page

Devin Roza

I need to be able to use Ibid, but also have the requirement that if the citation is the first that appears on the page, Ibid should not be used, but rather the "Subsequent" format, even if the previous citation was identical (and so Zotero uses "Ibid" or "Ibid with Locator").

Does Zotero support this? I have been investigating but haven't found anything so far.

ajlyon

That sounds rather hard. Zotero doesn't generally know where on the page the citation is located, so this will not be easy to address. What style guide is this? It'd be good to document exactly who is requiring this.

adamsmith

not the first time I hear this requirement, though - someone else requested that, too.

fbennett

LaTeX supports this, as well as even/odd page discrimination. If CSL is ever extended in this direction, I guess we would want all of that functionality. For the present, though, this is off the map, and there are no plans for implementation as far as I know.

staniko

I think this is an important point. Someone should put that on the development roadmap.

Really awful, when you start a new page in Word / OpenOffice, insert citations and there is a "ibid. ..." which refers to a page before.

fbennett

For the time being, of course, this can be handled with a final edit of the document before submission.

ajlyon

I've just added this to the CSL schema issue tracker, to keep in mind for the longer term: https://github.com/citation-style-language/schema/issues/68

Rintze

See also:

http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/2208/bluebook-lawreview/?Focus=10694#Comment_10694
http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/17304/hwr-berlin-zitierstil/?Focus=88837#Comment_88837

bdarcus

Really awful, when you start a new page in Word / OpenOffice, insert citations and there is a "ibid. ..." which refers to a page before.

No it doesn't; it refers to the preceding citation; has nothing to do with pages.

ajlyon

But in a paged environment, as Word/OO often is, for a person who expects ibid to be page-bound, the presence of ibid there is unexpected, and maybe even unpleasant for someone who is well-accustomed to such a style. Ibid sometimes has to do with pages-- and here it does.

bdarcus

If some styles require that, then fine. But I don't want feature requests to be driven by complete misunderstanding of what a basic concept is, so was just correcting that misunderstanding.

samuelas

I'm not certain how this would be helpful, since the pages in a Word manuscript do not correspond to the final typeset document in any way.

adamsmith

samuelas - yes, I agree in general - though I'm sure there are plenty of school requirements - from term paper to Ph.D. thesis - that do not want ibid at the top of the page and where Word paging is the final paging. I really wonder, though, if it's worth going to the trouble to built this, given that this really is the only place where that makes sense.

edit: well, actually, if csl is going to be used in projects closer to the final typeset - as LaTeX/BibTeX is - that would be another scenario where this would make sense. But that's clearly not going to be through word/ooo.

samuelas

I don't know how one would use Zotero with LaTeX other than exporting a file that, say, BibLaTeX would have to deal with, but this also seems like it might be an acceptable workaround for the few people in this situation. (Indeed, Ibid. in footnotes sounds like CMS and I suspect the number of CMS people--e.g. humanists/historians--using LaTeX is pretty slim.)

adamsmith

this is leading us astray, but just to clarify, I didn't say csl with LaTeX, I said csl in publishing processes similar to LaTeX:
As you know, a good amount of journals and books do final typeset in LaTeX -
There is no reason that csl couldn't be used in context that similarly produces finished typeset - maybe e.g. the pandoc/csl application is already close to that, not sure.

bdarcus

As you know, a good amount of journals and books do final typeset in LaTeX -
There is no reason that csl couldn't be used in context that similarly produces finished typeset - maybe e.g. the pandoc/csl application is already close to that, not sure.

I think it is, but I haven't tested it with complete, real, manuscripts (using it for an in-progress manuscript now).

Ideally I'd like to be able to write in markdown using pandoc, but be able to choose whether to have tex output use citeproc-hs for citation processing, or biblatex. Not sure if this is possible now or not.

Rintze

I guess for CSL, we can introduce a citation-specific option to active a cite position reset on a new page (see http://citationstyles.org/downloads/specification.html#choose). I'm not sure how much flexibility is required here (i.e., whether the "ibid" and "ibid-with-locator" positions always reset to "subsequent", or whether they reset to "first" for other styles). Alternatively, maybe we could add a "first-on-page" position.