Upgrade Storageimprovments to come ?
Zotero appears to be a very powerful and convenient tool for bibliographies. So we would like it to be perfect!
I am not able to get into the heart of it. I just made an attempt to adapt an existing style for french standards in humanities.
Since I encountered some problems , I think I have to tell you about them, they concerned:
1/ the documentation.
. I didn't find an up-to-date information about the existing variables, authors... I discovered some of them by reading other styles, but they are not in the list.
. I would have much appreciated to have for each type, the list of the possible variables, sorted in the same order that the one on the user's panel, with the corresponding name
. I didn't find any information on the way ibid, ibid-with-locator function. It is still a mystery for me (I posted questions on forums)
2/ some more types would have been useful:
. periodic (journals, newspapers) cited as a whole, that is without any author and/or title, identified by the sole publication name
(I have filled some, but didn't succeed in sorting them correctly with the other sources. they appear before the others, although I added "container-title" in the sort-keys)
. conference-papers as a whole
3/ the lack of some variables:
. several groups of publisher-place and publisher, since they aren't always unique
. 2 dates : from and to (for publications, encyclopedias or books as a whole)
. number-of-pages and pages altogether on the same panel (type= report has pages, but in fact more often has to be cited with the number-of-pages)
. editor and place for periodics
4/ the lack of mapping of some items
5/ for chapters. Since there is only a type referring to container-title, the panel is not clear. It might be reasonable to have two types :
. chapter, for a part of a book. The authors of the part and the book are the same.
. contribution, where authors of the chapter and authors of the container-title are different. In this case, the panel should be divided into 2 well-distinct parts:
- concerning the chapter itself
- concerning the container
6/ some functions that are announced for the next version :
. ISSN (I hope it will be in addition to ISBN (some journals have both ISBN and ISSN))
. different formats for first and last names
. name particles
. name-part order
Hoping these informations would be useful, I thank you for all what is already available.
I am not able to get into the heart of it. I just made an attempt to adapt an existing style for french standards in humanities.
Since I encountered some problems , I think I have to tell you about them, they concerned:
1/ the documentation.
. I didn't find an up-to-date information about the existing variables, authors... I discovered some of them by reading other styles, but they are not in the list.
. I would have much appreciated to have for each type, the list of the possible variables, sorted in the same order that the one on the user's panel, with the corresponding name
. I didn't find any information on the way ibid, ibid-with-locator function. It is still a mystery for me (I posted questions on forums)
2/ some more types would have been useful:
. periodic (journals, newspapers) cited as a whole, that is without any author and/or title, identified by the sole publication name
(I have filled some, but didn't succeed in sorting them correctly with the other sources. they appear before the others, although I added "container-title" in the sort-keys)
. conference-papers as a whole
3/ the lack of some variables:
. several groups of publisher-place and publisher, since they aren't always unique
. 2 dates : from and to (for publications, encyclopedias or books as a whole)
. number-of-pages and pages altogether on the same panel (type= report has pages, but in fact more often has to be cited with the number-of-pages)
. editor and place for periodics
4/ the lack of mapping of some items
5/ for chapters. Since there is only a type referring to container-title, the panel is not clear. It might be reasonable to have two types :
. chapter, for a part of a book. The authors of the part and the book are the same.
. contribution, where authors of the chapter and authors of the container-title are different. In this case, the panel should be divided into 2 well-distinct parts:
- concerning the chapter itself
- concerning the container
6/ some functions that are announced for the next version :
. ISSN (I hope it will be in addition to ISBN (some journals have both ISBN and ISSN))
. different formats for first and last names
. name particles
. name-part order
Hoping these informations would be useful, I thank you for all what is already available.
2 and 5. Presumably you mean the proceedings or collection of conference papers. For now, the 'book' type is probably useful enough for these. In the future, hierarchical types may be the solution to these specific types.
3. I don't understand what you mean by Date ranges are in CSL 1.0.
I don't know if I see a way of saying that a report is a stand-alone object or is in a volume that contains a collection of reports (unless you use the series title for this). Ideally, this ambiguity would also be resolved with hierarchical types.
Journal articles do allow the editor type of contributor. Do you mean publisher? This has been discussed previously. I don't know if everyone agrees on the utility of including this info (it is almost never cited) & I certainly wouldn't expect it before hierarchical types are added.
4. Please be explicit. Note that the CSL data model does differ from Zotero's data model.
- I regret I am not able to add information in the Wiki.
- As to the
"several groups of publisher-place and publisher, since they aren't always unique"
Here is an example :
SCHLEIERMACHER, Friedrich Daniel Ernst. Herméneutique. Traduit de l'allemand par Christian Berner. Paris : Editions du Cerf ; Québec : Presses de l'Université Laval, 1987, XVIII-202 p. Collection Passages.
This book is published in Paris by the "Editions du Cerf " and in Québec by the "Presses de l'Université Laval". We are asked to give the complete information.
- Lack of mapping. Maybe it is not the right term. I meant the fact that some informations on the panels don't have corresponding variable-names.
Two examples :
1/ Chicago fullnote uses "container-author", which is not mentioned as a role in the documentation
2/ You told me in another discussion that "guest" was not a role in CSL, but the panel "broadcast" mention "guest".
http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/12837/problems-adapting-citation-style/#Item_13
It is very difficult to know which have, which haven't. Unless there are other ways to use these variables. If so, please let me know, I should be happy to learn.
Thank you for your advice
Unfortunately, it doesn't (yet) show the mappings for creators, like "guest"; for that, the source code is still the only reliable guide. This will definitely improve in the coming months.
As for "guest", this is indeed an independent creator type in Zotero, and it has no mapping to a CSL variable. It is not currently possible to include it in citations. If it is required, please open a separate thread for that specific item, providing citation examples and references to one or more publisher or journal style guides. it should then work its way into CSL design discussions.
chrome://zotero/content/xpcom/csl.js
but that uses Zoteros internal storage names rather than the ones displayed, so is only half helpful.
Also, if you say you can't contribute to the wiki - is that for technical reasons (which would be easy to solve) or because you don't have the time or language ability?
I very much appreciate Zotero approach, but I am far from understanding it thoroughly, and I think I haven’t the language abilities for.
As a non English-speaking user I encounter some additional difficulties, due to the fact Zotero panels have been translated so as to facilitate the end user’s use, but when we have to make some changes, we discover styles and documentation which refer to English names. They are even some “faux ami”. The best example is “journal” which means “newspaper” in French, while Zotero “journal” refer to French “revue”.
As to “guest” which appears not to be a correct variable, I was very surprised to learn it, since I naively used it in my style, and it worked either for bibliography and citation.
I just asked the question about it, when I noticed the validator response from http://validator.nu/#l283c84
Error: Bad value guest for attribute variable on element names from namespace http://purl.org/net/xbiblio/csl.
Thanks for your help
1/ What I wrote :
</term>
<term name="guest" form="long">
<single>invité</single>
<multiple>invités</multiple>
</term>
...........
<macro name="guest">
<names variable="guest">
<label form="long" prefix=" " text-case="capitalize-first" suffix=" : "/>
<name form="long" and="text" delimiter=", " delimiter-precedes-last="never"/>
</names>
</macro>
............
<else-if type="broadcast">
<group delimiter=". ">
<text macro="title"/>
<text macro="guest"/>
<text macro="article-detail"/>
</group>
</else-if>
..................
2/ Results:
a/ bibliography
ENTHOVEN Raphaël. « Molière 1/5 : "Le misanthrope" (rediffusion) ». Invités : Georges Forestier et Gilles Kevorkian. France-Culture, 17 mai 2010. Disponible sur : < http://www.franceculture.com/ > (Consulté le 18 mai 2010).
b/ citation in a Word text
1 R. ENTHOVEN. « Molière 1/5 : "Le misanthrope" (rediffusion) ». Invités : Georges Forestier et Gilles Kevorkian. France-Culture, 17 mai 2010. Disponible sur : < http://www.franceculture.com/ > (Consulté le 18 mai 2010)
3/ Validator message :
________________________________________________________________________
#
Error: Bad value guest for attribute name on element term from namespace http://purl.org/net/xbiblio/csl.
From line 30, column 3; to line 30, column 33
</term>↩ <term name="guest" form="long">↩ <si
#
Error: Bad value guest for attribute variable on element names from namespace http://purl.org/net/xbiblio/csl.
From line 381, column 5; to line 381, column 28
est">↩ <names variable="guest">↩
__________________________________________________________________________
4/ If I suppress the "term" part,
a/ I get another message from the validator :
_________________________________________________________________
#
Error: Bad value guest for attribute variable on element names from namespace http://purl.org/net/xbiblio/csl.
From line 369, column 5; to line 369, column 28
est">↩ <names variable="guest">↩
________________________________________________________________
b/ If I install the style, in spite of the validator message, I get :
ENTHOVEN Raphaël. « Molière 1/5 : "Le misanthrope" (rediffusion) ». Georges Forestier et Gilles Kevorkian. France-Culture, 17 mai 2010. Disponible sur : < http://www.franceculture.com/ > (Consulté le 18 mai 2010).