softmaker vs libreOffice

Leigh S S
Hi.
I am looking for reports of experience of using Softmaker &/or LibreOffice with Zotero.
I have been writing academic journal papers with Zotero and MS Office for years now.
Love Zotero
Want to complete move to Linux and looking to drop MS
Office.
Libre office looks great but since my co-authors will still use MS Office and there is a requirement for different file types / conversions there is scope for problems with Zotero citations / bibliographies.
I dont have experience of Softmaker but know that they use the MS Office formats (unless there is any 'hidden' conversions involved?)
I dont mind paying but prefer FOSS.
So, can anyone tell me about some recent experiences of using Softmaker &/or LibreOffice with Zotero?
Cheers!

  • adomasven
    There are thousands of users of Zotero with LibreOffice and while it works very well, collaboration with Word is a bit more complicated. If you save a LibreOffice .odt file as .docx your Zotero citations will be flattened. You can convert Zotero citations to be stored in the document as Bookmarks, but they are much more prone to corruption in case of extensive editing and won't allow citations in footnotes.

    We don't really get any reports of things going bad or well with Softmaker products, likely because there just isn't many users. From my short investigation and testing their products seem to work great, but it's probably a good idea to trial them yourself before committing fully.
  • dstillman
    edited June 30, 2022
    To clarify, though, we don't have anything to do with SoftMaker's Zotero integration, other than providing a bit of technical guidance when they were developing it. It triggers the same Zotero citation dialogs, but the integration code is theirs, and we wouldn't be able to provide support for it if something went wrong — you would need to get help from them.
  • Leigh S S
    Thanks for replies!
    I guess you two are 'from Zotero'?

    @adomasven
    By flattened you mean as in codes removed and just text? If so this is fine as when I send a document to my colleagues I usually do this anyway as they dont all use Zotero (fools! :) )
    I am trialing it, just thought I'd ask here for extra input

    @dstillman
    Yup, aware of that. whilst using Softmaker trial this morning it was asking for me to reinstall the plugin and it looks like it is the same as the Libreoffice one - but I may be wrong

    I will trial and share any results here.

    In the meantime - anybody else with any experience / tips / other?
  • dstillman
    edited June 30, 2022
    it looks like it is the same as the Libreoffice one - but I may be wrong
    I mean, I just said above that this is wrong. We produce the LibreOffice plugin. We don’t produce the SoftMaker one. It’s not our code.

    Again, it triggers the Zotero citation dialogs, but those are part of the Zotero app and can be triggered by anything.
  • Leigh S S
    edited June 30, 2022
    @dstillman
    Oh, sorry.

    I thought Softmaker was using the Libreoffice plugin as when I open a Softmaker doc and put in a Zotero citation I get the following warning:

    The Zotero plugin for LibreOffice is outdated. Reinstall the plugin from Preferences → Cite → Word Processors.

    However, when I follow that warning and reinstall the plugin I get the same warning next time, even after a reboot

    Puting a Zotero citation in a Libre Office document gives me no warning at all

    Hence my confusion

    I realise that's a problem with Softmaker, not with you.

    I didnt realise Zotero made the LibreOffice plugin - a plus for Libreoffice
  • adomasven
    Yup, aware of that. whilst using Softmaker trial this morning it was asking for me to reinstall the plugin and it looks like it is the same as the Libreoffice one - but I may be wrong
    This means SoftMaker haven't updated their Zotero integration since Zotero 6.0 release.
    If so this is fine as when I send a document to my colleagues I usually do this anyway as they dont all use Zotero (fools! :) )
    I think you'll find that it isn't sustainable since often you need to go back and forth multiple times with a manuscript and the citations will get flattened each time you get the document back from your colleagues. FWIW I don't know if TextMaker Zotero citations are even compatible with Word, although I imagine they don't get flattened if the document is edited with Word.
  • Leigh S S
    "This means SoftMaker haven't updated their Zotero integration since Zotero 6.0 release. "

    Ah, thanks.

    "I think you'll find that it isn't sustainable since often you need to go back and forth multiple times with a manuscript and the citations will get flattened each time you get the document back from your colleagues."

    This might not actually be such a problem as I write most of the paper, and flatten anyway before I send to them

    "FWIW I don't know if TextMaker Zotero citations are even compatible with Word, although I imagine they don't get flattened if the document is edited with Word. "

    I'll try it and see

    PS - how are you including quotes from my posts on this forum? - in my browser (FF) there is no formatting / quoting etc

  • adomasven
    Forum posts support HTML here, so

    <blockquote>your comment</blockquote>
  • Leigh S S
    Forum posts support HTML here, so
    your comment
    Aha! Thanks!
  • Leigh S S
    edited June 30, 2022
    I just made a file in Softmaker on ArchLabs Linux with just a title and a citation of 66 papers and generated the bibliography and then saved it as a Microsoft Word File 1.docx file

    Then I opened that in Word in Win 10 and all was good

    So I edited the citation and (using classic view as I prefer that) removed 36 of them, then saved it under another name, File 2.docx

    Then I rebooted into Linux and opened File2.docx in Softmaker and all was good

    So I edited the citation and (using classic view as I prefer that) removed all except 4 of them, then saved it under another name, File 3.docx


    So, that seems to show a good level of robustness for Zotero citations between Softmaker and Word I think

    Not an exhaustive test, but its encouraging

    I did not try Softmaker on Windows as I dont intend to do that - I want to be free of Windows

    When I open the files in Libre Office on Linux the Zotero citations are flattened

    Still not decided tho, as Libre Office is FOSS, which is good (if I switch to it I will make a suitable donation - its not about the money for me), but seems from my initial research that Softmaker might be more robust in terms of Zotero than LO?
  • Leigh S S
    Also

    One point of consideration is how well the Linux word processor software can 'exchange' the citations with Word (my co-authors will no doubt be using this even if I am not), and whether Zotero citations are flattened

    However, if these co-authors are using Mendeley or EndNote then surely flattening of Zotero citations is not an issue as there is no compatibility between Zotero and Mendeley or EndNote is there?

    If they do use Zotero, they will have their own library anyway, with a different set of references. But I guess if they cite something they could send me the RIS files or equivalent?



  • bwiernik
    I really recommend just having one person handle the referencing. Even if everyone was using Zotero, I’ve found getting everyone to be conscientious about checking their library data is really hard, easier to just have one person be responsible
  • Leigh S S
    Thanks @bwiernik
    Thats actually what I have been doing
    I am thinking more and more that flattening of Zotero citations is not any real drawback for me
  • Leigh S S
    Oh, this may be a dealbreaker for me - no equation editor in Linux version of Softmaker

    https://forum.softmaker.com/viewtopic.php?f=389&t=20201
  • adomasven
    If they do use Zotero, they will have their own library anyway, with a different set of references. But I guess if they cite something they could send me the RIS files or equivalent?
    You can collaboratively cite in the same document with multiple Zotero libraries. The item information missing from your library will come from the one stored in the document along with citations. We don't technically recommend this, but it is possible. For collaborative work you should generally use a group library.

    Regarding TextMaker, since they have not updated their plugin for Zotero 6, you won't be able to insert Zotero notes into your document, but that may not be an issue for you. When they initially implemented their plugin, they had some incompleteness with bibliography formatting and I haven't checked if they've fixed those. You can check this simply by citing something in LibreOffice and TextMaker and comparing the bibliography output in a few different citation styles. Either way, before committing to TextMaker, I would at the very least post on their forums to find out if there is anyone there that will be able to provide Zotero support if you discover any bugs and if they are planning to keep the plugin up to date with Zotero going forward.
  • Leigh S S
    Either way, before committing to TextMaker, I would at the very least post on their forums to find out if there is anyone there that will be able to provide Zotero support if you discover any bugs and if they are planning to keep the plugin up to date with Zotero going forward.

    I just edited my post there of last night

    https://forum.softmaker.com/viewtopic.php?f=389&t=22713

    At the moment Softmaker looks pretty good in terms of MSO compatibility and Zotero (IF there is the commercial justification for them to keep it maintained) and the UI is closer to the MSO 2016 that I am used to (Tabbed in LO is similar, but different enough that it makes more sense for me to invest in familiarising myself with the default UI which is used more in support explanations such as forums)

    However, for my specific case driven by a wish to move to Linux, the lack of a Linux equation editor in Softmaker is a dealbreaker (although I understand why they dont do it - the disadvantage of a commercial software is it has to make a return).

    ALso, I have learnt from this thread (amongst lots of other things, thanks!) that LibreOffice has a far higher user base for Zotero, and the plugin is maintained by Zotero - thus making support in the case of problems more likely. Its also a very helpful forum.

    So, as for everything, pros and cons for all options - but in my specific case I am now almost certainly going to progress with an investment in Libre Office, which I also already have a little experience of)

    Thank you so much for you help

    Any further info I get in the future, from elsewhere and my experience going forward I will add here
  • Leigh S S
    You can collaboratively cite in the same document with multiple Zotero libraries. The item information missing from your library will come from the one stored in the document along with citations. We don't technically recommend this, but it is possible. For collaborative work you should generally use a group library.
    Again, this is good to know, but I will continue with my present method of flattening citations before sharing a word document with my co-authors (c.f @bwiernik) who are normally more co than authors :)

    I did actually email them last night with a 'poll' of which word processing and reference management softwares they use. I know we exchange Word docs - unfortunately!

  • Leigh S S
    edited July 4, 2022
    So, most of my co-authors use Latex and/or Word

    I have found a solution which is the best for me at the moment:

    (i) For writing papers with other people, MS Office Word in a Virtualbox Win10 Virtual Machine on ArchLabs Linux. This allows me to stay in Linux and actually Win10 seems to run faster in the VM than it does in dual boot (probably because I have it stripped right back down in the VM). Luckily, I keep my Zotero Data files on my external disk, so I just point Zotero at the correct folder. All seems to work perfectly.

    (ii) I will start using LibreOffice Calc for spreadsheets and LibreOffice Write for documents I write on my own. LibreOffice is FOSS, has a large userbase with Zotero, Zotero support for plugins, and compatibility with Word is no longer an issue due to (i) above

    Thanks for all the help

    Zotero ROCKS!
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