citations from collected works

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  • VanyaVaidehi
    chicago full note!
  • fbennett
    Okay. To get the effect you are after, I will need to make a modification to the citation processor. Juris-M does something similar to what you need with legislation -- treating multiple items with similar characteristics as a single entity for back-referencing purposes. I can apply the same technique to Book Section. It will take a few days to prepare, but the method is clear. This is an experiment, so it will be enabled only in Juris-M. Together with the Abbrevs Filter, it should produce the effect you need.

    It will help me work out the design if you can provide a series of citations, to items drawn from at least two volumes in the Collected Works, in the form you wish them to appear in footnotes.
  • VanyaVaidehi
    I guess right now its appearing as (please dont be offended by the caps lock -just highlighting/emphasiing!):

    Volume 1

    Lala Lajpat Rai, ‘Swami Dayanand’, in The Collected Works of Lala Lajpat Rai, ed. B.R. Nanda, vol. 1 (New Delhi: Manohar, 2003), 12.
    Lajpat Rai, 34. [THIS IS WHEN SAME ITEM FROM SAME VOLUME, SAME CW IS CITED AFTER THE OTHER. WHY DOES IS NOT EVER SAY IBID.?]
    Lala Lajpat Rai, ‘Sri Krishna, Extracts from Yogiraj Shri Krishna, Lahore, 1900 (Original in Urdu)’, in The Collected Works of Lala Lajpat Rai, ed. B.R. Nanda, vol. 1 (New Delhi: Manohar, 2003), 1–2. [DIFFERENT ITEM FROM SAME VOLUME AND SAME CW IS REPEATED]
    Lajpat Rai, 43. [SAME CITATION AS ABOVE SO THIS IS FINE, I GUESS, ALTHOUGH WHY NOT IBID.?]
    Lajpat Rai, ‘Swami Dayanand’, 78.

    Volume 2
    Lala Lajpat Rai, ‘The Social Genius of Hinduism, April 1904’, in The Collected Works of Lala Lajpat Rai, ed. B.R. Nanda, vol. 2 (New Delhi: Manohar, 2003), 32. [DIFFERENT ITEM, DIFFERENT VOLUME, SAME SERIES - SO EVERYTHING IS REPEATED, WHICH I GUESS MAYBE IS OK FOR THE FIRST TIME, BUT THEN IT KEEPS HAPPENING]
    Lala Lajpat Rai, ‘Reform or Revival?, 1904’, in The Collected Works of Lala Lajpat Rai, ed. B.R. Nanda, vol. 2 (New Delhi: Manohar, 2003), 43. [HERE, DIFFERENT ITEM FROM SAME VOLUME, SAME SERIES - SO IT COULD JUST BE Lajpat Rai, 'Reform of Revival', in CWLLR 2 (AND NOTHING ELSE AFTER THAT]
    Lala Lajpat Rai, ‘Message of the Bhagwad Gita, Modern Review, March 1908’, in The Collected Works of Lala Lajpat Rai, ed. B.R. Nanda, vol. 3 (New Delhi: Manohar, 2003).
    Lajpat Rai, ‘Social Genius’.
    Lala Lajpat Rai, ‘Hindu Nationalism, 1902’, in The Collected Works of Lala Lajpat Rai, ed. B.R. Nanda, vol. 2 (New Delhi: Manohar, 2003), 43. [[HERE, AGAIN, DIFFERENT ITEM FROM SAME VOLUME AS PRECEDING ITEM, AND SAME SERIES - SO IT COULD JUST BE = Lajpat Rai, 'Social GeniusRevival', in CWLLR 2 (AND NOTHING ELSE AFTER THAT?]]

    So the Collected works of LLR repeats itself 1) every time a separate item from even the same volume OR 2) a different item from a different volume is cited. Which wastes a lot of word count space, i think! I hope im being clear - but my own faculty doesnt know the answer to this - so i myself can only be this precise!

  • fbennett
    Actually what I need is just a simple set if examples that show how you *do* want the cites to appear. The current results are not really an issue, you don't need to illustrate or critique that.
  • fbennett
    @adamsmith I would like to try a solution to this in Juris-M. There is one use case I'm unsure of. What form does CMS suggest for Ibid. references to the exact work, as opposed to another work (with a different title) in the same volume?
  • adamsmith
    edited May 15, 2018
    for ibid? That would just be the author name(s)
  • fbennett
    Ah - no more Ibid. term in CMS 17?
  • fbennett
    Second question (probably with an obvious answer, but just in case): If the works in the volume all have the same author, you would add the title?
  • adamsmith
    No, the author only form in lieu of ibid is not disambiguated, because it _always_ refers to the previous full citation. Here'd the full example from CMS (not formatted for readability, so follow the numbering)

    1. Morrison, Beloved, 3.

    2. Morrison, 18.

    or

    2. Ibid., 18.

    3. Morrison, 18.

    or

    3. Ibid.

    4. Morrison, 24–26.

    or

    4. Ibid., 24–26.

    5. Morrison, Song of Solomon, 401–2.

    6. Morrison, 433.

    or

    6. Ibid., 433.
  • fbennett
    I'm confused, maybe I'm missing some context. I'll step over to the library and take a look today.
  • adamsmith
    It's really pretty straightforward:
    CMS keeps three different forms:
    1. First citation
    2. Subsequent citatoin
    3. ibid.

    The first citation is (in full note) the full citation.

    The subsequent citation continues to be author last name(s) plus the short title.

    The ibid. citation, by default, is no longer ibid, but just the author last name(s). The absence of a short title indicates it refers to the just cited work and thus doesn't required disambiguation.

    Ibid. is still allowed, though, so we have the style with ibid available as an alternative.
  • fbennett
    Thanks, that's what I needed to know.
  • VanyaVaidehi
    Volume 1

    Lala Lajpat Rai, ‘Swami Dayanand’, in The Collected Works of Lala Lajpat Rai, ed. B.R. Nanda, vol. 1 (New Delhi: Manohar, 2003), 12. [so, full author/full series name, editor name, publisher name, date + volume no. + page no. --- when mentioned first] [maybe here, i can say something like Hereafter CWLLR]
    Ibid., 34. [since its same item above with different page number]
    Lala Lajpat Rai, ‘Sri Krishna, Extracts from Yogiraj Shri Krishna, Lahore, 1900 (Original in Urdu)’, in CWLLR 1, 1–2. [full item title (when new item mentioned first, but abbrievated series title, and nothing else except page. no)
    Ibid., 43. [since same citation as above with diff page no.]
    Lajpat Rai, ‘Swami Dayanand’, 78.

    Volume 2

    Lala Lajpat Rai, ‘The Social Genius of Hinduism, April 1904’, in CWLLR 2, 32.
    Lala Lajpat Rai, ‘Reform or Revival?, 1904’, in CWLLR 2, 43.
    Lala Lajpat Rai, ‘Message of the Bhagwad Gita, Modern Review, March 1908’, in CWLLR 3
    Lajpat Rai, ‘Social Genius’.
    Lala Lajpat Rai, ‘Hindu Nationalism, 1902’, in CWLLR 2 (New Delhi: Manohar, 2003), 43.

    I hope this helps! Thanks a lot for putting in the effort!
  • VanyaVaidehi
    ***oh sorry, no published in the last one!
  • VanyaVaidehi
    publisher*
  • fbennett
    Thanks. I'll build some tests and see what can be done.
  • VanyaVaidehi
    hey! was wondering if there has been any progress. I feel like 'ibid' has started to appear! but wondering if any progress on abbreviations for collected works?
  • fbennett
    Thanks for pinging back. I should have something for you this weekend. There will be one limitation: the abbreviation of the collected works will be applied everywhere, including the first reference. If you want the full form in the very first reference, you will need to apply it by hand. Apart from that, things should work as you outline them above.
  • VanyaBhargav
    Ok, so after my whole thesis is complete, I should add it manually in the first citation, right?

    And the abbreviation CWLLR will apply for each volume and the volume no. will appear after it?

    Thanks so much for this!
  • fbennett
    edited May 24, 2018
    Yes, that's right. (Using the abbreviated form everywhere, with an explanation in the front matter, is actually permitted by Chicago.)
  • VanyaVaidehi
    this might be slightly annoying for someone who's been working on this, but - would it be easier to just enter the abbreviated form in the "title" itself, then? Wouldn't that come down to the same thing, in the end? Or am i being silly and missing something? :/
  • fbennett
    You could enter the abbreviated form as Book Title and omit all of the other metadata to get the form you want. That would assume that these are disposable references for use only in the document you are currently working on, that will never be shared with others or used in other projects, but as far as formatting these particular citations goes, yes, that would work.
  • fbennett
    Is that a preferred solution at your end?
  • bwiernik
    @VanyaVaidehi Doing that, asssuming you are leaving the rest of the citation data the same, wouldn't produce exactly what you want. The author would still also be printed, along with the short title, in subsequent citations.
  • fbennett
    They will be chapter references, so the chapter author, if any, and the title of the work should show, I think. In Juris-M that could be done by tracking book title and book author as a shadow ID, and tying that to a Hereinafter abbreviation, with appropriate adjustments to the style.

    (I have an internal deadline on some work for my own research coming up, so I'll table this for the moment, pending news on whether it's needed.)
  • VanyaVaidehi
    Im not following! Could you explain simply? I dont get what the difference would be.
  • VanyaVaidehi
    also, im sorry but i also have another entirely separate question:

    how can i get the following citation in zotero chicago style:

    Amir Ali's Address to the All-India Muslim League, 30 December 1908, in Pirzada ed,, Foundations of Pakistan (etc etc) [note: the item has no author technically.

    right now, (entered as a separate item under book section), the editor appears first, but i want to just have the item name appear, followed by --- in Pirzada ed,, Foundations of Pakistan].

    If you know what i mean!

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