Zotero for print-based sources

adamreid83
Heya,

I'm just starting my PhD which will be focusing significantly on digital texts, so Z is perfect for that part. But is there a way to do essentially the same for printed sources? I know I can create bibliographic listings, but I'd also like to be able to add quotes (with page numbers), comments, and keywords associated with a specific source. Short of creating something like a word document and attaching that to the listing in Zotero, any suggestions?

Thanks!
  • bdarcus
    Um, try notes?

    Notes get more powerful in 1.5 in that it supports HTML-based semantic "rich text." So you can actually tag your quotes as quotes (though formal page number support ATM; I just append a '@23' if I need to track this).
  • GrantRobertson
    What do you mean by "(though formal page number support ATM; I just append a '@23' if I need to track this)"? Remember, not all of us are privy to your insider acronyms and past comments.
  • bdarcus
    edited February 20, 2009
    Oops; I left out a word or two; it should say "though there IS NO formal page number support ..."

    You can imagine that in theory one could select a quote and add a page number to it. But while that's been talked about, it's not implemented yet.

    As for "insider acronyms" that's a bit over-the-top; try google and you'll see there's nothing "insider" about it.
  • GrantRobertson
    It does seem that if one is going to create software that generates bibliographic citations and stores bibliographic quotes then it makes sense to also store the page number of that quote. It is required information after all.

    Re: Acronyms; As an academic, isn't it best to always write so as to be best understood by as many people as possible, without them resorting to Google?

    Be that as it may, thanks for your help.
  • bdarcus
    edited February 20, 2009
    It does seem that if one is going to create software that generates bibliographic citations and stores bibliographic quotes then it makes sense to also store the page number of that quote. It is required information after all.
    Yes, but it's not clear what the best way to handle that is. This is not straightforward.

    What you are assuming is that a quote is stored as a database object. In that case, you might, for example, create a note, select some note type called "quote", and add a page number in some field.

    But I actually think that's probably not the best way. What I'm talking about means quotes are embedded within notes (see, for example, the screenshot here; the "Observation ..." bit is such an embedded quote), which means you can include your own commentary, just as you would in a document you're authoring.

    Attaching the page number is the obvious next step, but I'm not aware of it ever being done before, so it will take some thought.

    Acronyms: if I'm writing an academic manuscript, I take the time to attend to these details. If I'm in a hurry writing an informal email or forum post (which is where acronyms like "ATM," "IIRC," etc. come from), not so much.
  • erazlogo
    edited February 20, 2009
    Zotero developers plan to add a page numbers feature in rich text notes: http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/4369/wysiwyg-notes/#Item_5

    For a workaround, see this:
    http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/1583/notes-grouping-alphabetically-instead-of-chronologically/#Item_9
  • adamreid83
    Thanks for the suggestions and comments. To be honest, I hadn't even really explored the notes option (I saw it but just overlooked it). But looking at it now, in conjunction with eraz's work-around. It looks like it's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks everyone :)
  • GrantRobertson
    bdarcus wrote:
    "What I'm talking about means quotes are embedded within notes (see, for example, the screenshot here; the "Observation ..." bit is such an embedded quote), which means you can include your own commentary, just as you would in a document you're authoring.

    Attaching the page number is the obvious next step, but I'm not aware of it ever being done before, so it will take some thought."

    Ah ha. Well the problem here is that you are embedding data within other data. Your data is not normalized. I would recommend simply defining a new type of data item, called a quote, and telling users to create a new "Quote Item" for each new quote. those quotes would be associated with the main Bibliographic Entry item. Each "Quote Item" would include the text of the quote and the page number.

    The direction you seem to be going seems to require a parser that would automatically parse the quotes out of the text of the Note Item. However, this then requires the user to format the text of the Note Item properly so the parser would always work. This seems antithetical to the rest of the design philosophy of the Zotero program (i.e. Let the computer do the work).

    P.S. I have no clue how you did block quotes in your previous post. Perhaps you have a different interface to the forum than is available to me.
  • bdarcus
    Well the problem here is that you are embedding data within other data. Your data is not normalized. I would recommend simply defining a new type of data item, called a quote, and telling users to create a new "Quote Item" for each new quote. those quotes would be associated with the main Bibliographic Entry item. Each "Quote Item" would include the text of the quote and the page number.
    I think reasonable people can disagree. My opinion is that only supporting a quote type is too much of a straight-jacket. I know I'm not the only person who frequently mixes quotes and commentary in my notes. Sometimes semi-structured data is better than fully structured.
    The direction you seem to be going seems to require a parser that would automatically parse the quotes out of the text of the Note Item.
    The note interface uses XHTML, so the blockquote is an XHTML blockquote; not plain text. If you enter text like "blah" and click the quote icon, that gets converted internally to:

    <blockquote>blah</blockquote>
    So parsing is easy (as is embedding additional information in that quote node).

    BTW, I'm not coding any of this, nor do I have any decision-making role here; just explaining some of the background.
    P.S. I have no clue how you did block quotes in your previous post. Perhaps you have a different interface to the forum than is available to me.
    Nope; I just type the HTML tags in the window.
  • GrantRobertson
    I think reasonable people can disagree.
    I agree. I just think discussing the disagreements helps developers sort out what the users want and how to achieve it. I can't contribute code - yet - so I try to help sus out how to make improvements.
    My opinion is that only supporting a quote type is too much of a straight-jacket. I know I'm not the only person who frequently mixes quotes and commentary in my notes. Sometimes semi-structured data is better than fully structured.
    Yes, I guess that is the new web-based way to think about it. As long as the text is appropriately tagged then you can always dump the note field into a DOM object and yank out or change whatever you need.
    The note interface uses XHTML, so the blockquote is an XHTML blockquote; not plain text. If you enter text like "blah" and click the quote icon, that gets converted internally to:
    I'm guessing that we are talking about the upcoming 1.5 version here. I took a look and see that the Zotero developers are using the TinyMCE editor. I am not completely familiar with the extents of what can be done with JavaScript but I'm also guessing that the Zotero developers would be the ones to decide and control which plugins to use with their implementation of TinyMCE. However, it would be possible for someone, including the Zotero developers, to write a plug-in for TinyMCE that supports inserting Dublin Core tags within the XHTML in the note field. Then the Zotero developers could then make their parser support Dublin Core and be able to yank out any citation type info embedded in tags within the note field, including the page number.

    Given the direction you claim they are going, this then seems a logical next step.

    Give me a couple of years and I will be able to start contributing actual code to make all this stuff work. In the mean time, I am looking forward to a stable release of Zotero 1.5 so I can try this stuff out. Right now, I am not up to fighting with an unstable, pre-release version.


    Again, thanks for the interesting conversation.
  • sean
    @adamreid83: Glad you found what you wanted.
This discussion has been closed.