No ibid. in in-text citation style when prior footnote contains a citation

sinophil
Hello,

Is there a way to define in csl (for in-text-styles) that ibid should not be used in the main text if the prior citation is in a footnote (i.e. a comentary footnote that includes a zotero reference to the same source quoted in the main text)?

I thought this might be a common problem for others as well, but I couldn't find anything on this in the forums. Therefore it's probably either an odd problem not easily solved or there's something obvious I overlooked (I hope for the latter).
  • adamsmith
    There is no option for this, no.
    So to make sure I understand this right, you have
    As in (Meyer 1991) we find nothing (1) but others have found something (Smith 1995)

    (1) See summary in Smith (1995 )
    but with ibid turned on you get
    As in (Meyer 1991) we find nothing (1) but others have found something (ibid.)

    (1) See summary in Smith (1995)
    where the (1) is the footnote.
  • sinophil
    edited September 13, 2011
    Thanks for the answer (although, for obvious reasons, it doesn't make me very happy). I'm really surprised this hasn't come up before.

    Yes, that's what I meant. Most likely it wouldn't occur within one sentence. Nevertheless, it would still be confusing for the reader. Since there is no option in csl, this requires some manual editing before finishing a manuscript. Not very elegant...
  • adamsmith
    might be possible to fix this globally - I would argue there doesn't need to be an option, we would never want (ibid.) in a case like this.

    The reason this hasn't come up before is that at least in US academia, ibid is virtually non-existent in author-date styles. In fact, the only author-date styles on repository that I'm aware of using ibid are non-English styles.

    Let's see if fbennett find this thread, if not I'll send him a pointer.
  • ajlyon
    I'm not sure how this would be fixed, and I don't think that citeproc-js could do it, since it presumably doesn't know that the first Smith citation was in a footnote, and not in the main text-- this is probably something that Zotero needs to handle and pass the right signals to citeproc-js, assuming even it knows which citations are in footnotes.
  • Simon
    edited September 13, 2011
    Zotero already passes this information to citeproc-js. (properties.noteIndex is the note number, which is non-zero if and only if the citation is in a footnote/endnote.)
  • ajlyon
    Great. In that case perhaps Frank can look into fixing this on that end? I don't think the behavior here is specified in the CSL specification, but this is a standard interpretation of ibid, correct?
  • fbennett
    I'll take a look this weekend.
  • sinophil
    That sounds promising.

    Should this also work the other way around? Taking the example from above:
    As in (Meyer 1991) we find something (1) but others have found nothing (Smith 1995).

    (1) See summary in Meyer (1991)
    with ibid turned on should probably not turn out as
    As in (Meyer 1991) we find something (1) but others have found nothing (Smith 1995).

    (1) See ibid.
    I'm not sure about this. Somehow I hadn't thought of this case before.
  • fbennett
    For styles that use position conditions, the processor divides the notes into two sets, depending on whether noteIndex has a non-nil value.

    In local testing, I'm finding that on refresh, with the plugin for LibreOffice, Zotero (in both multilingual and the trunk) is apparently delivering noteIndex=0 to the processor for all three cites in the examples above. (The second [footnote] cite shows noteIndex=1 when it is first inserted, but that changes to 0 on refresh.)
  • fbennett
    Zotero is not passing noteIndex for class="in-text" styles. I've filed a ticket with a patch.
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