Ebd. (ibid.) in footnotes

a_viol

Hi everybody,

I just recognised a problem concerning my footnotes. I'm using the Law generic style .de as most other styles seem to have Problems with the German "S." for page. So this is the style which soonest fits my needs and I would really like to keep it. Unfortunately the style doesn't use the ebd. abbrevation for repeated citations. Others like the standart CMOS style do so. Is there any way to change the style in order to get the ebd. automatically or will i have to type it manually?

adamsmith

does that mean you get a regular citation for repeated citations?
Would you want things to look exactly as in CMOS? (which one?)
That's very easy.
If you open the style in the edit panel, you'll actually see that two sections have been "commented out" using <! --
in the citation section of the style (the section that starts with <citation>)
just remove the four markers (i.e. the <! -- and the --> s) and reinstall the style, following the guidelines here:
http://www.zotero.org/support/csl_simple_edits

a_viol

Thanks for the fast response! Works perfectly now! Before the changes i had footnotes like these:

Zit. n. Ahlert, Multikanalstrategien; Konzepte, Methoden und Erfahrungen, S. 11.
Vgl. Ahlert, Multikanalstrategien; Konzepte, Methoden und Erfahrungen, S. 12.
Vgl. Ahlert, Multikanalstrategien; Konzepte, Methoden und Erfahrungen, S. 11.

and now they look like these:

Zit. n. Ahlert, Multikanalstrategien; Konzepte, Methoden und Erfahrungen, S. 11.
Vgl. ebd., S. 12.
Vgl. ebd., S. 11.

This was exactly what I wanted to do. Thanks a lot!

a_viol

I just talked to my prof. and unfortunately he doesn't like my citation style. Now I'll have to do some more changes. Hope you can help me!
The citations should contain more Information, strictly speaking they should look like this one:

3 Vgl. Backhaus, Klaus; Büschken, Joachim; Voeth Markus: Internationales Marketing, 2.,
ü̈berarb. und erg. Aufl., Stuttgart 1998, S. 68.

instead of:

3 Vgl. Backhaus/Büschken/Voeth, Internationales Marketing, S. 68.

How can I change all those parts? In the dev/csl syntax summary i found the information that I have to change the delimiter and the sort-separator and the name-as-sort-order. But where exactly do i have to change it in the csl? And how do I get the publisher, publisher-place, edition and date in my citations?

By the way "2., ü̈berarb. und erg. Aufl." stands for "2nd revised and complemented ed." and I know from other posts that it is a major probl to get the "ü̈berarb. und erg." in the citations. If someone has an idea how to solve it, it would be nice, but the other changes are more important.

adamsmith

hi - gerade keine Zeit aber guck Dir mal den "Chicago Full Note with Bibliography"
Stil an - der sollte das meiste machen was Du willst (aber nicht die überarbeitete Aufl.)

a_viol

Das sieht schon ganz gut aus aber nach etwas Suche bin ich auf Turabian Deutsch gestoßen. Das gefällt mir noch etwas besser weil das Datumsformat überall stimmt. Sonst sind sie sich sehr ähnlich. Folgendes ist mir aber bei beiden aufgefallen: ebd wird nach dem Präfix groß geschrieben z.B. "Vgl. Ebd." und das S. für Seite fehlt. kann man daran noch etwas machen? Im Law generic style .de war das nicht so.

For the non German speakers:
I like the "Turabian Deutsch" style, but I recognized some little issues with this one as well. The Ibid is written with a capital letter after the prefix and the abbrevation for page which should be "S. " is missing. The Law generic style .de did both things right. Any ideas how to change this?

adamsmith

hey - this is all pretty easy, but before I start changing stuff again, maybe you could commit to specifications. I.e. start with Turabian and specify everything that you want changed.
(I don't see a specific Turabian Deutsch - where is that style?)

a_viol

Oh, sorry! I forgot to mention that this style came from an external link. You can find it here:

http://podolak.net/de/downloads/doc_details/48-turabian-deutsch-fuer-zotero.html

it looks quite fine for me, just the two issues. The "Ebd." should be "ebd." after the prefix and the abbrevation for page should be "S. ".

The rest should be ok. At least I hope so! The problem is that my prof. didn't tell me to use a specific style. He just showed me another Diploma thesis and said that it should look kind of like this one...

adamsmith

German academics and their citation styles...
I'll have a look - at changing Turabian Deutsch for you.

a_viol

Thanks a lot!

adamsmith

I think you will have to pick if you want ebd always capitalized or always lowercase - Zotero can't adjust it to the prefix.

Where exactly would the S. have to be added? Just for the pages after ebd.?
What about journal articles and edited volumes - does it replace the page range of the article, does it come after that?

a_viol

Always "ebd." would be fine for me! As far as I can see, I always have a prefix in front of it. Even if not... no problem to change those few things manually.

I think it would be perfect to have the S. always in front. I checked some examples. At the moment I get for "Zeitschriftenartikel":

Citation:
143 Peter Hanser, “absatzwirtschaft- Vertriebsumfrage 2002; Professionalität zwischen Leistung und Kosten,” Absatzwirtschaft, Nr. 10 (Oktober 2002): 46.

Bibliography:
Hanser, Peter. “absatzwirtschaft- Vertriebsumfrage 2002; Professionalität zwischen Leistung und Kosten.” Absatzwirtschaft, Nr. 10 (Oktober 2002): 42-46.

And it should look like this:

Citation:
143 Peter Hanser, “absatzwirtschaft- Vertriebsumfrage 2002; Professionalität zwischen Leistung und Kosten,” Absatzwirtschaft, Nr. 10 (Oktober 2002): S. 46.

Bibliography:
Hanser, Peter. “absatzwirtschaft- Vertriebsumfrage 2002; Professionalität zwischen Leistung und Kosten.” Absatzwirtschaft, Nr. 10 (Oktober 2002): S. 42-46.

adamsmith

try this
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=c14691802f6af3bac2b435915e8821d7e04e75f6e8ebb871

a_viol

Great! Thank you very much for your help!

Clux19

Hi!

The citation style you developed seem to be a good starting point for me.
Is there a possibility to upload it again?

Thanks in advance.

a_viol

Hi,

I added a few more changes in order to meet my prof's expectations (economics @ Hochschule München). Try this one:

http://www.file-upload.net/download-2271152/turabian-de-modified3.csl.html

MikeExp

After having the same problem with the Harvard Reference format 7 (Author-Date) (de), I found this thread. Since I am no programmer (official I am one but I suck big time ;) I just tried to copy the part of the beforementioned Law generic style .de into my slightly modified Harvard Reference format 7 (Author-Date) (de).

The citation section now looks like this:
<citation>
<option name="et-al-min" value="3"/>
<option name="et-al-use-first" value="1"/>
<option name="et-al-subsequent-min" value="3"/>
<option name="et-al-subsequent-use-first" value="1"/>
<option name="disambiguate-add-year-suffix" value="true"/>
<!-- <option name="disambiguate-add-names" value="false"/>
<option name="disambiguate-add-givenname" value="false"/> away - see http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/6142 -->
<option name="collapse" value="year"/>

<layout prefix="(" suffix=")" delimiter="; ">
<choose>
<if position="ibid-with-locator">
<group delimiter=", ">
<text term="ibid" suffix="."/>
<text macro="point-locators-subsequent"/>
</group>
</if>
<else-if position="ibid">
<text term="ibid" suffix="."/>
</else-if>
<else>
<group delimiter=", ">
<text macro="contributors-short"/>
<text macro="title-short"/>
<text macro="point-locators-subsequent"/>
</group>
</else>
</choose>
</layout>

<!--
<layout prefix="(" suffix=")" delimiter="; ">
<group delimiter=":">
<group delimiter=" ">
<text macro="author-short"/>
<text macro="year-date"/>
</group>
<group>
<text variable="locator" prefix=" "/>
</group>
</group>
</layout> -->
</citation>

The stuff which has been commented out in the lower part is the original harvard 7 code, the code above that is what I copied from the law style. Unfortunately zotero throws me an error when I try to update my document. Can anyone give me advice what I am doing wrong?

MikeExp

I managed to improve that code by using


<choose>
<if position="ibid-with-locator">
<label variable="locator" form="short" suffix=". "/>
<text variable="locator"/>
</if>
<else-if position="ibid">
<text term="ibid" suffix="."/>
</else-if>
<else>
<group delimiter=" ">
<text macro="author-short"/>
<text macro="year-date"/>
</group>
<group>
<label variable="locator" form="short" suffix=". " prefix=": "/>
<text variable="locator"/>
</group>
</else>
</choose>


Unfortunately this gets me 2 problems:
1. The "S." reappeard (german for "p.") and I have no clue why.
2. It doesn't say "ebd." when the page number is different. Then the name of the author just gets ommitted and only the page number gets pasted. e.g.: "(S. 134)"

adamsmith

MikeExp - I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to do, but as a general rule, you can't copy parts of styles into each other, because they use macros which may have different names.

What _are_ you trying to do?

MikeExp

Okay, sorry for not being more clearly.

I am working with Harvard Reference format 7 (Author-Date) (de) and want to make following changes:
- I do not want "S." (which is the german equivalent to "p.") to appear in citations
- when an author gets cited several times without an other author interrupting him, I want to use "ebd." (german version of "ibid.")

Example:
Mike (Mike 2010: 23) says zotero rocks. He further says that the Internet is great (vgl. ebd.: 33). Finally, he comes to the conclusion "that Firefox is the best browser there is" (ebd.).

The last is just "ebd." coz it's supposed to be on the same page as the citation before.

I _think_ I have finally gotten that to work by using following code:

<layout prefix="(" suffix=")" delimiter="; ">
<choose>
<if position="ibid-with-locator">
<!-- <label variable="locator" form="short" suffix=". "/> -->
<text term="ibid" suffix=".: "/>
<text variable="locator"/>
</if>
<else-if position="ibid">
<text term="ibid" suffix="."/>
</else-if>
<else>
<group delimiter=" ">
<text macro="author-short"/>
<text macro="year-date"/>
</group>
<group>
<!-- <label variable="locator" form="short" suffix=". " prefix=": "/> -->
<text variable="locator" prefix=": "/>
<!-- <text variable="locator"/> -->
</group>
</else>
</choose>

<macro name="author-short">
<names variable="author" delimiter="; ">
<name form="short" delimiter=", " initialize-with=". " delimiter-precedes-last="always"/>
<substitute>
<names variable="editor"/>
<names variable="translator"/>
<text macro="anon"/>
</substitute>
</names>
</macro>

<macro name="year-date">
<choose>
<if variable="issued">
<date variable="issued">
<date-part name="year"/>
</date>
</if>
<else>
<text value="o.&#160;J."/>
</else>
</choose>
</macro>


I have to test that thorougly. I anyone wants to help me doing that, help would be appreciated.

adamsmith

looks good - if you want to you can leave out the <group> tags around the last
<text variable="locator" prefix=": "/>
line, but they won't do any harm either.

dilpreet

Hi I am trying to do something similar to what MikeExp is doing by using Ibid in author date style. I AM a programmer and I am still lost with this xml. Can someone help? I tried copying and pasting ibid code from other styles using ibid and nothing worked and I am really lost. there is no reference on the zotero site to change a code to use ibid other than: http://www.zotero.org/support/dev/csl_syntax_summary which is still confusing

I would greatly appreciate it if someone can give me hints. or guide me along the path to enlightenment. I want to change the code to allow this:

abcdefg (author 1999, 25). hijklmnop (Ibid., 27) qrstuvwxyz (Ibid.)

I modified some of MikeExp's code to suit my needs but it is not working when I try it in the zotero test pane. As a programmer, I am very frustrated!! If someone can help, I would appreciate it. Thanks

<layout prefix="(" suffix=")" delimiter=", ">
<choose>
<if position="ibid-with-locator">

<text term="ibid" text-case="lowercase" suffix="., "/>
<text variable="locator"/>
</if>
<else-if position="ibid">
<text term="ibid" text-case="lowercase" suffix="."/>
</else-if>
<else>
<group delimiter=" ">
<text macro="author-short"/>
<text macro="year-date"/>
</group>
<text variable="locator" prefix=", "/>
</else>
</choose>

<macro name="author-short">
<names variable="author" delimiter="; ">
<name form="short" delimiter=", " initialize-with=". " delimiter-precedes-last="always"/>
<substitute>
<names variable="editor"/>
<names variable="translator"/>
<text macro="anon"/>
</substitute>
</names>
</macro>

<macro name="year-date">
<choose>
<if variable="issued">
<date variable="issued">
<date-part name="year"/>
</date>
</if>
<else>
<text value="test"/>
</else>
</choose>
</macro>


</layout>
</citation>

fbennett

Style discussions are easier with the full style on the table. Can you place it on github as a gist, and post the link here?

http://gist.github.com/

dilpreet

thanks

I put it here http://gist.github.com/629200

fbennett

The style is not valid CSL 0.8.1, so that needs to be fixed for a start (the cs:macro nodes need to be moved to a position above and outside the cs:citation node).

On validation, see this link:

http://www.zotero.org/support/dev/creating_citation_styles#xml_validation

adamsmith

note that that is wrong in Mike's code above, too - I think he was just putting the macros there to show his work. If you're copying Mike's code like you did, Zotero will throw an error.
Your ibid section is correct, though.