Complex referencing with MRHA, Ibid, Repeated references, multiple editions, Archive Material

dansussex

1. The use of Ibid. Can this be used for Archive material as well as books? If your last entry on the page before is an Ibid can you use Ibid if the source is the same as your first reference on the next page? Or should you put the whole reference again?

2. Referencing Multiple editions of the same and their later references-If referencing say James Edmonds, Official History of the war, volume 1: Military Operations France and Belgium 1914, 3rd Edn (London: Macmillian, 1933; repr London: Macmillian, 1937). presumably referencing another edition would then be the full reference, James Edmonds, Official History of the War, Volume 1, 2nd Edn, (London: Macmillian, 1925). -Would later references be Edmonds, Military Operations France and Belgium 1914 Vol 1, 1922, p.66.

bwiernik

1. The MHRA style in the Zotero Style Repository doesn't use ibid at all, but instead prints the authors (and year/title if necessary to disambiguate) and page numbers. In general, a style that uses subsequent/ibid rules will apply them to all item types unless specifically told otherwise. This would apply to archival materials as well as books and other types. Zotero has no way of knowing whether a citation appears on the same page or not--for the MHRA style, it will simply use the full reference the first time and the short form all subsequent times (this is in accordance with the MHRA manual).

2. Subsequent citations to the different editions will include the year for each book to disambiguate them.

dansussex

Thanks bwiernik :-)

I have been using the short form in accordance with MHRA. I believe though that Ibid can be used, this I input manually as Zotero does cannot do it. Where Ibid is employed I was just unsure about how that would work in practice. If my last reference on page one is J.K.Rowling, The the philosophers stone ..... etc etc, and then my first reference on page 2 is the same book would I use Ibid here? If it were on the same page I would, later on, if separated by another reference I would use the Short form if I have already referenced this book.

On subsequent editions then, first-time use full reference for another edition and then short form with year. Thanks :-)

bwiernik

The short citation as automatically applied is preferred by MHRA over ibid. I would recommend not using ibid. In general, it’s a bad idea to manually edit the citations, as this prevents Zotero from being able to automatically update them in the future. Basically, just let Zotero do it’s thing. It’s designed so that you don’t have to think about these sorts of things anymore.

dansussex

Ah ok thanks, How do you get Zotero to generate subsequent short citations? I was not sure it could do that and was manually doing them as well in the footnotes.

bwiernik

Zotero does this automatically when you use the Word processor plugins.
https://www.zotero.org/support/word_processor_plugin_usage

dansussex

Hi bwiernik

I had not realised that the plugin could do this before. Already done most of my Biblio :-(. It's really useful that it can identify where the same author has been mentioned elsewhere and distinguishes between these references. Also page numbers :-)

However, it does not yet seem to be able to distinguish between editions of the same book (i suppose the need for this is quite rare). It just gives me shortened ref but does not distinguish more than that.

So I guess I just add like this below

original ref - James Edmonds, ed. Official History of the war: Military Operations France and Belgium 1914, vol 1, (London: Macmillian, 1922)

subsequent ref, add year as other years present it thesis - Edmonds, Official History of the War: Military Operations France and Belgium 1914 Vol 1, (1922), p. 34.

and then add 33 for my next ref

Edmonds, Official History of the War: Military Operations France and Belgium 1914 Vol 1, (1933), p. 34.

Could maybe lose 2nd half of title, although this is what Zotero gave me apart from the year.

bwiernik

From Zotero's perspective, different editions are different books. It will print the full reference the first time for both editions, then print the short versions on subsequent citations. Based on MHRA rules, this is a reasonable approach, and I wouldn't worry about trying to change to a different format (which wouldn't be easy or possibly even possible).

dansussex

Hi bwiernik

Thanks :-) what do you mean would not change format? I have to stick with MHRA is that what you mean?

I will go with Edmonds, Official History of the War as a short ref then add year (1922) eg as i begin to cite different versions. I am doing this because the content changed by edition which is critical to my argument :-). I have just found some of the more complex referencing a little difficult, maybe due to m Dyslexia. Some of these are a little unclear in the MHRA 3rd edition manual.

Best Dan

bwiernik

Zotero’s automatic short forms will automatically add the year to diaambugiate if necessary. Really, I would recommend switching over to using the Word plugin and letting Zotero do the formatting automatically. Even at this point, I suspect it will save you a lot of time.

dansussex

Yeah, I have started using it, but it not recognising different years, other than that it has been ok.

dansussex

Dear Bwiernik

Can I also ask if i reference a book say :

Shelford Bidwell and Dominick Graham, Fire Power: The British Army - Weapons and Theories of War 1904-1945 Barnsley: Leo Cooper Ltd, 2004), quoted in Terence Zuber, The Mons Myth: A Reassessment of the Battle (Stroud: The History Press, 2010), p.64.

The next time i quote Zuber can I just put the repeated ref Zuber, p.77 Or do I have to state the whole ref : Terence Zuber, The Mons Myth: A Reassessment of the Battle (Stroud: The History Press, 2010), p.64. before i can start peated references?

bwiernik

I would enter the first as a citation with two Zotero items and “quoted in” as a prefix on the second. It’s probably reasonable to use a short form for Zuber thereafter (which is what Zotero will do).

dansussex

Thanks bwiernik.

So the first time i referenced A quoted in B. But then, later on, I cited B only, should this be a full reference the first time I reference it alone before I use repeated?

Then for the will be B (shortform)?

Thanks so much for all your help.

Warmest regards
Dan

bwiernik

I would use the short form the second time regardless of “quoted in”. Really, just let Zotero handle the formatting of these. It’s not worth your effort trying to figure all these things out.

dansussex

Just double checking. Some of this i did prior to figuring out the plugin and i can't start again because I have over 500 footnotes.

dansussex

Hi,

I have been playing around with Suffix and Prefix - I think I have a really good handle on it now - Thanks.

The MHRA style guide shows this:

When a second item from a volume previously mentioned is to be listed,
use an abbreviated form, as in this example referring to the volume above.
Eugène Vinaver, ‘The Prose Tristan’, in Arthurian Literature, ed.
by Loomis, pp. 339–47.

However, Zotero does this

Hart, p. 55 quoted in ; Jones, From Boer War to World War, p. 56. books


Hart, p. 56 quoted in ; Jones, ‘“Shooting Power”’, p. 77. Prior to this it uses the full title for both before shorting the reference.

Zotero suggestion actually makes more sense. I have learnt so much tinkering with all this.

Thanks so much

bwiernik

I would put the "quoted in" as a prefix to Jones, rather than a suffix to Hart, so that the semicolon is placed in a more reasonable position.

dansussex

agreed much better, although I have removed semi colon's and only used commas. This was based on what I have seen in other dissertations and in the MHRA guide. I have only used semi-colon's where more than one source has directly mentioned the same or similar point.