The bibliography reference number in word should be connected to the reference in zotero

marc01

Zotero makes my life easier but zotero is far from perfect. I just wrote a paper with 138 scientific references and now I want to write a new paper. I want to start by importing the scientific references with number 15-35 from my old word bibliography to my new zotero folder. I think it is unreasonable to expect me to individually add these references again manually to my new folder. I would have preferred if I could import specific references with specific references numbers from my old word bibliography to the new zotero folder. I therefore think is would be much better if each reference in zotero had the same number they have in the bibliography. Not having a unique reference number also makes me nervous. It is extremely easy to put in a reference in the wrong place if you only have a paper title or a author name. It is also harder to identify references. A unique number feels safer. I am actually hopping that Microsoft word 2019 has a greatly improved reference manager. I am not holding my breath though because the reference manager word has today is pathetic. Having a very good reference manager inside Microsoft word would be preferred to an external zotero reference manager because I have had word documents that has become completely useless because someone has edited the bibliography manually. The is clearly not optimal. I therefore think word with an integrated reference manager where the reference links cant be broken would be superior.

fbennett

@marc01 We'll see how things go.

fbennett

(References in Zotero do have a unique id number, it's just not exposed on the surface because that would be unnecessary and confusing.)

marc01

I respect you personal opinion but I feel the complete opposite. I think that not having a unique reference number exposed to the user is confusing. I also thinks not having such number adds uncertainty. I would feel much more comfortable if I could connect each reference to a specific number. I am kind of a control freak so I want to make sure that each reference goes where it is intended. I also want to be able to move references between documents with little effort.

fbennett

To move references from one document to another, you can just copy and paste. If the field codes for a citation are included in the paste, that gets you its references.

marc01

Well my paper has already been published. The field codes have been removed by the editor and the bibliography has been edited by the editor. My document is completely dead but I still have the references in my zotero library. That's why I think that the references in the zotero folder should have the same number as in the original bibliography so users can easily identity each references individually and move individual references between zotero folders easily. Now I have to manually check the old bibliography and check which reference number is associated with which reference and google each reference again in firefox and then add each individually references again to the new zotero folder. This is not optimal with 138 references and I think it is somewhat unreasonable to expect people to do this. It took a lot of work to add 138 references to my zotero folder. I would expect that when you have done such work once that you don't have to do it again for each paper you publish. People want to reuse their references from previous scientific papers without having to do all the manual work again. Since zotero is free which I very much appreciate I wont be to critical but I strongly feel this problem needs to be solved to make zotero the number one reference manager.

dstillman

I think the whole unique id discussion is getting this off track — it's much better to just explain what you're trying to accomplish rather than insisting on a particular solution. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're asking for, but every document you create is going to have references at different positions, no? So a unique id doesn't make sense unless you're saying it would actually appear in the formatted references in your finished paper and be constant across all papers you ever publish, which wouldn't be admissible in most citation styles.

Now I have to manually check the old bibliography and check which reference number is associated with which reference and google each reference again in firefox and then add each individually references again to the new zotero folder. This is not optimal with 138 references and I think it is somewhat unreasonable to expect people to do this.

We certainly don't expect people to do that, and I'm not clear why you're googling things if you already have them in Zotero.

The real solutions here are:

1) Don't delete the live version of your paper. Zotero is designed to allow you to copy citations between papers.

2) A future "document collections" feature will create a virtual collection showing the references from an open document and let you copy those to other collections. But again, that will require the original live document.

3) Until that feature exists, maintain a collection for a particular document as you go if you know you'll want to use the same citations again.

fbennett

With a well-configured backup system, you could retrieve the copy with the live references.

I'm not meaning to bicker here; but a backup routine is a good-housekeeping policy with its own benefits, and would give you a simple way to move references from past papers that does not require modifying the software to suit one particular workflow.

As a separate thought, if you want to have key-codes for each reference, perhaps you would be more comfortable writing in LaTeX than in one of the word processors. The Better BibTeX plugin for Zotero will generate stable keys that you can use (and must use) in one of the LaTeX authoring systems.

marc01

"Don't delete the live version of your paper"

If you have ever published a scientific paper you know that the editor does what he or she wants regardless of your opinion and that includes deleting field codes and manually edit the bibliography. If you want to publish a scientific paper your only option is unfortunately to obey the editor.

I have old versions of my paper that the editor has not yet edited and where the references are not destroyed but I want to use the references from my published paper. I don't feel comfortable extracting references from an old version.

There has to be a better way that this can be done where people (editors and authors) can collaborate and edit an word document without making the zotero references useless.

In regard to the references unique id. I have a hard time understanding why a references in a bibliography for each paper and each zotero folder can't be associated with a unique number that can be seen by the user? I am NOT saying that every individual reference should have the same number for all papers! I am saying that each zotero folder with references should be directly connected to the specific bibliography in each word document. If the reference number in a specific bibliography is 5 then such reference should also be associated with number 5 in the specific zotero folder. Then I can easily select individually reference and export them to a new zotero folder for a new paper.

Maybe this is not possible because zotero is an external software to word but the fact is that zotero updates the bibliography and the reference numbers in word if I change the order of the references in word. This indicates to me that zotero knows how the bibliography of each word document is structured and the number that is associated to each reference in the document. This means that zotero can extract such bibliography references number if zotero wanted to and display it for each individual folder for each individual reference in zotero.

dstillman

I understand you're focusing on your particular workflow and requirements here, but these ideas just aren't generalizable to any sort of standard workflow.

I have a hard time understanding why a references in a bibliography for each paper and each zotero folder can't be associated with a unique number that can be seen by the user?

Because you don't cite items from specific collections. You just select them from your library. There's nothing stopping you from choosing an item from the same collection in multiple documents. You might have multiple versions of documents with different reference numbers. You might delete a collection. You might change citation styles, even to a non-numeric one. And so on. What you're describing would just add an astounding level of complexity and potential failure states for something that as far as I can recall no one has ever asked for before.

I have old versions of my paper that the editor has not yet edited and where the references are not destroyed but I want to use the references from my published paper. I don't feel comfortable extracting references from an old version.

But you're already talking about manually reinserting the items from Zotero into the new document, with the data that's stored in Zotero. If there are text changes from your editor, you have to reapply those in any scenario. So you might as well just use the last live document to copy linked items and then scan for any that were removed by your editor, which is easy enough. And then, once document collections are implemented, you'll be able to copy those from the "document collection" to a new collection.

marc01

Thanks for your answer.

"I understand you are focusing on your particular workflow and requirements"

I only use my requirements as a starting point but the idea is general. I would not be surprised if other people are having the same problems.

"You might change citation styles, even to a non-numeric one"

Unique folder reference identifiers can be non-numeric. I have never said that only numbers should be allowed.

"What you're describing would just add an astounding level of complexity"

I think we have to agree to disagree regarding this. I actually think complexity and uncertainty would be reduced when users know that each zotero reference folder contains exactly the same bibliography as the word version of each paper.

For me it does not make any sense that users can put a large number of scientific references in a zotero reference folder without any way to identify them individually and export them individually to a new zotero folder.

dstillman

I think we have to agree to disagree regarding this.

Since I'm one of the people who would need to code this, you're going to have to take my word for it. I'm telling you that what you're suggesting is basically incompatible with how Zotero — and, as far as I know, most other reference managers — works on a fundamental level. But if you find a tool that works better for you, all the best.

I actually think complexity and uncertainty would be reduced when users know that each zotero reference folder contains exactly the same bibliography as the word version of each paper.

Yes, and that will be possible once "document collections" are implemented. But that will depend on a live document, and there's no getting around that.