Upgrade StorageBest practices - Zotero Folder
Hello,
I was recently setting up Zotero for a colleague when I did the standard change of the zotero directory. Whenever I setup zotero, I always switch the default directory away from the profile directory and into the "My Documents" folder (in windows/logically similar places on other OSs).
This got me thinking - why does Zotero default to the profile directory? It just always seems to me that it is much more obvious for people to make backups if the folder is in a place where they see it... Also, when somebody is reformatting or getting a new pc, it's common to remember everything in their documents folder, but it would be easy to miss the zotero folder if it's in the firefox profile directory. That's why I always move it...
Anyway - I was just curious about why it defaults where it does... personally, if there's not a great reason, I'd vote for moving the default to a different place... but maybe that's just me.
Mike
I was recently setting up Zotero for a colleague when I did the standard change of the zotero directory. Whenever I setup zotero, I always switch the default directory away from the profile directory and into the "My Documents" folder (in windows/logically similar places on other OSs).
This got me thinking - why does Zotero default to the profile directory? It just always seems to me that it is much more obvious for people to make backups if the folder is in a place where they see it... Also, when somebody is reformatting or getting a new pc, it's common to remember everything in their documents folder, but it would be easy to miss the zotero folder if it's in the firefox profile directory. That's why I always move it...
Anyway - I was just curious about why it defaults where it does... personally, if there's not a great reason, I'd vote for moving the default to a different place... but maybe that's just me.
Mike
2) If someone's backup strategy doesn't include backing up their Firefox profile (which contains bookmarks, history, cookies, etc.) or other files in the Application Data (Windows) or Application Support (Mac) directory, there's a problem with their backup strategy. My Documents (Windows) and Documents (Mac) are for storing documents, not application data.
Thanks for responding... I'd argue this though...
1. Sure, Zotero is a firefox extension - but the question is do your users primarily think of it as a firefox extension? If your users primarily think of zotero as a citations manager that happens to run in firefox, then the fact that it is an extension is secondary. Further, even firefox recommends that normal users don't use the profile manager (http://support.mozilla.com/en-US/kb/Managing+Profiles). I'm guessing most actual users have no idea that they can switch a profile or what a profile really even is... and they probably love zotero, but only incidentally care that it's a firefox extension.
2. A good backup strategy certainly would include all of those folders, but I personally know almost nobody that uses one. I doubt most have any idea what their application data folder is or why it matters. This is one of the reasons that a huge ongoing complaint about MS Outlook is that people lose their email when they upgrade - outlook defaults to storing it's pst file in the app data folder. Again, I doubt most care that their zotero data is technically application data. As a simple example, how many endnote users store their libraries somewhere other than with their documents? Presumably it's not many - in large part because they don't know where else things would go and would never think to go or look their anyway.
It seems that many of the comments in the forums fundamentally boil down to bad backup strategies, and I'm guessing that the obscure location of the zotero data is at least partly responsible for that...
Thanks you for your comments here as well as your work on zotero generally - it really is by far the best such application out there...
Mike
The Documents folder is for user-created documents. Polluting it with non-openable application data is a bug, and it's annoying to users who expect to be able to navigate through files they've created and organize them freely.
EndNote® library files, for what it's worth, are closer to documents—there's a Save dialog, and they can be opened and closed and moved without consequence—so storing them in the documents folder makes more sense.
There is obvious logic to the retort: "Zotero is a Firefox extension. Firefox extensions store their data in the Firefox profile directory. "
But I think that's viewing things from the perspective of a programmer and not a day-to-day user.
Zotero is a reference tool and documents manager that just happens to run via Firefox. Users expect their documents to show up in "Documents," so that's what should drive design decisions, IMHO.
However, I believe that the default makes sense for "users" too: if they want to backup or mirror their firefox profile, one could make a case they'd be confused to have nearly everything EXCEPT zotero data to be copied over. Further: documents directories are operating system-specific & some are running zotero from portable firefox (and would definitely not appreciate it defaulting to a directory on a harddisk, rather than the profile directory on the usb stick).
But it's tangential to the main point of the above: the Zotero library isn't a document. While all users may not understand this, the distinction is real and for good reasons. As developers we have a responsibility to follow OS guidelines, and OS guidelines say quite clearly that (My) Documents is for openable user-created documents, which is why most apps follow this. Design decisions should not be driven by the misconceptions of a subset of users who also happen to be using inadequate backup tools.
Further, I doubt most care about what is and is not documents. I know that in the case of my parents, if it's not on their desktop or in their documents folder - in their minds - it doesn't exist.
Perhaps this can resolve this way... the real point that started this was that it makes it hard for most users to backup zotero. Would it be possible to put a "backup" option in the menu somewhere? Obviously there is an export... and sure - that does it too... but I mean a utility that would copy your entire zotero folder - files, translators, everything - and maybe create a zip file wherever you'd like. Then, it might even be cool to have a corresponding "restore from backup" that simply replaces the existing zotero folder with one from a backup.
Of course people can jump up and say "what's the difference between this and an export?" - and naturally there isn't a big one... except that I'm guessing many users don't associate exports and backups together inherently. This just makes it a lot easier to tell people to create backups.
I suppose another option could just be an option to specify the storage folder on installation - maybe with a note about the relative advantages of storing it in the profile directory or the documents folder.
Mike
Just set up a sync directory on each computer between that computer's zotero dir (which, by the way, I changed into a more manageable location... C:\Zotero\ ... like the original poster is suggesting) and a Zotero dir on the usb drive. It became especially useful when I put a portable firefox installation onto the usb drive that uses the same usb Zotero dir, so I can access everything (albeit slowly) on 3rd party computers too.
You just have to be sure to sync whenever you leave a machine. Otherwise you can get mismatches between the libraries and it all goes to hell (well... just means you have to copy the whole library from one location to the other which takes quite a while with a large library)
Nevertheless, with future developments in mind, I've now moved to letting zotero handle it all with webdav. Jungledisk is dirt cheap for this purpose.
I agree that this would be a great feature.
Thanks to Windows Live Sync and its predecessor I've been able to replicate my working environment in every machine and I know that whatever change I do in one is repeated on the others. That is also true for my 3 main folders with pdf references (different topics, hence the separation).
I'd love to link those pdfs I have to their reference in zotero just by drag and drop and letting zotero know, in options for example, which base directory I'm using. If in each machine I set the proper base directories, then the links should be locally redirected to the proper location and no broken link would arise.
I really don't like the way the pdfs are copied to randomly named folders. They become only easily browsable from within firefox.
I really agree with you--saving PDFs to randomly named containing folders is not helpful. It was a sticking point for me even getting into zotero (although I must say now that I am very glad I did, as it is a fantastic tool). I need access to those folders through my OS, since I use other programs to access PDFs and have to be able to find them without doing a search every time.
My solution for this is to use links. Rather than attaching pdfs in zotero's folder system, keep your pdfs in the 3 main folders you already use, and create links to them in zotero. I had two main folders, and combined them to one folder when I switched to zotero. Combining to a single folder helps when you are using Zotfile (http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/5301/zotero-plugin-to-rename-move-and-attach-your-pdfs-to-zotero-items/) -- you just set that one storage folder as the destination folder for zotfile, and set up zotfile to add links to that folder. This works well with Windows Live Sync--that's how I keep my repository folder synced across computers. Then I use Zotero's sync feature to sync the zotero database and affiliated material.
Drag and drop as links would be very helpful in this workflow, and is under development (see http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/1154/).
J
However I have a couple hundred pdfs manually renamed with acronyms and meaningfully reduced titles, something an automated routine will never do: half of the key words are in the end of a 2 or 3 line title! So, while I recognize the worth of zotfile it cannot fit my demands.
The sync problem is that Live Sync is set to the documents folder, where I keep all my stuff, but its particular position in each machine differs, either because my log in name is different, which some may argue it's my option, or the OS is different, where there is little I can do.
So my constructive suggestion would be a system of paths, and whenever the linked file isn't found in the stored full path it would be searched in other places (listed locally for each machine)
In a PC I'd list:
"c:\documents and settings\<my user name>\my documents\general\papers\"
"c:\documents and settings\<my user name>\my documents\lasers\papers\"
"c:\documents and settings\<my user name>\my documents\radiation\papers\"
in a Mac
"/Users/<my user name>/documents/general/papers/"
"/Users/<my user name>/documents/lasers/papers/"
"/Users/<my user name>/documents/radiation/papers/"
I would say that the first of the listed paths would be a good choice for the default download location for those like me who prefer the downloaded pdfs to be in a friendly, browsable place, rather than buried in the firefox profile (I respect the "zotero is a plug in" argument, but dislike the result).