typohgraphical issue: apostrophe

Gitty K

I noticed that Zotero will in some cases insert vertical/typewriter apostrophes (as opposed to the typographic/curly apostrophe. This happens for instance when a title has a word in single quotation marks. It also occurs in pre/suffixes.
I'm wondering if there is a way to change this in the settings. Otherwise I'd have to manually find and replace them before sending a text to the publisher, which is just one more (and slightly error-prone) step.
(Note that my OOo settings have curly apostrophes set as standard.)

noksagt

Are the characters inserted the same as is used by your database and/or style file? They should be. Update your database entries and/or style files to use the appropriate characters. If you think that a certain change (especially to a style file) should apply to everyone or if this doesn't solve your problems, please detail your issue more (with an example reference, the citation style you use, versions of software, etc.) so that the issue can be replicated.

Gitty K

How do I enter a curly apostrophe into the database? I seem to have only one button for apostrophes on my keyboard. If that produces a curly or a vertical apostrophe seems to be determined by OOo settings.
While single quotation marks are vertical, Zotero uses curly double quotation marks, for instance with article titles in the bibliography. Thus I end up with a mixed typographical output, like in this example:
Flam, Helena. 1990a. “Emotional 'Man': I. The Emotional 'Man' and the Problem of Collective Action.” International Sociology 5:39-56.
When double quotation marks are part of the title/database entry, they are also rendered vertical in the output, for example:
Flam, H., 2000. The emotional "man" and the problem of collective action, Frankfurt am Main [u.a.]: Lang.
This is independent of the style I use (e.g. ASA, APSA, Chicago, Harvard...)
But if this is a style problem, how can I adjust the style?
I'm using OOo 3.0.1, Zotero 1.5b2, Firefox 3.0.8. Windows XP

noksagt

How do I enter a curly apostrophe into the database?

Copy/paste or use a program to insert it based on keyboard shortcuts. See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_marks#Typing_quotation_marks_from_a_computer_keyboard

If that produces a curly or a vertical apostrophe seems to be determined by OOo settings.

Some word processors have smart quotes to replace those as you type them. The feature does not apply to auto-inserted text or to other programs.

While single quotation marks are vertical, Zotero uses curly double quotation marks, for instance with article titles in the bibliography.

This is because the style file uses curly quotes to embrace the title, but your database entry has typewriter quotes.

When double quotation marks are part of the title/database entry, they are also rendered vertical in the output

This is because your database entry uses typewriter quotes.

But if this is a style problem, how can I adjust the style?

Yhe ones you report aren't style problems. But you can refer to:
http://www.zotero.org/support/dev/creating_citation_styles

Gitty K

Thanks for this thorough response. Copy/pasting or shortcuts will surely work as a workaround in a way. But I must say that it's not particularly user friendly. Apart from practical considerations (remembering a set of key combinations, checking/correcting each automated citation download into Zotero, going through several hundreds of existing entries) - what if I now enter all apostrophes as curly into the database and later I have to format a paper with vertical ones according to some publisher guidelines? I may be better off manually changing them in the document once the paper is finished - which, I think, I shouldn't have to do using a reference program.
I understand this may not be trivial to do, but couldn't Zotero be sensitive to document/wordprocessor settings?

noksagt

But I must say that it's not particularly user friendly.

No more so than entering in any other characters that aren't on your keyboard...

what if I now enter all apostrophes as curly into the database and later I have to format a paper with vertical ones according to some publisher guidelines?

There had been some discussion of quote types in CSL (mostly for actual quote marks, that are locale-specific).

I may be better off manually changing them in the document once the paper is finished

This is also easy. In OpenOffice, Format->AutoFormat->Apply.

Gitty K

"No more so than entering in any other characters that aren't on your keyboard..."

I guess, this doesn't make it userfriendly in absolute terms. And like I said, it wouldn't really solve the problem in the context of divergent formatting requirements. The AutoFormat solution seems equally cumbersome. I have just tried it and it changed a whole bulk of format settings, most of which I didn't want, creating only more work. Maybe there is a workaround to that too, changing a list of settings (and changing them back for the next document etc). But really, all I wanted to flag is: in a more userfriendly environment I wouldn't have to worry about all of this and that this maybe worthwhile taking into consideration as Zotero could save me some work by being more sensitive to the document settings if that is somehow possible.

noksagt

See also: http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/4933/localized-quotes/

And like I said, it wouldn't really solve the problem in the context of divergent formatting requirements.

Can you show styles where it explicitly states that titles must be rewritten to use either typewriter or tyographic marks?

The AutoFormat solution seems equally cumbersome. I have just tried it and it changed a whole bulk of format settings, most of which I didn't want, creating only more work.

It should only use the auto-formatting settings that you have applied (so you would have encountered the other settings when writing the document & it seems to be a good idea to trim down the list anyway.

Maybe there is a workaround to that too

You might ping the OO.o forums; they probably have a macro to handle the quotes & only the quotes.

But really, all I wanted to flag is...

It isn't clear to me where the quotes should be applied. If there are styles that say to use one over the other, it would seem to deserve a place in CSL & not just as a locale.

Gitty K

I'm working on a book for the German publishing house Campus that asks to use only curved marks throughout the text. Unfortunately, their style guide isn't online. It would quite surprise me, though, if any publisher accepts the mixed use of curved and vertical apostrophes that Zotero currently produces (unless they do inhouse formatting). It just simply doesn't look very nice, especially when curved and vertical ones appear close to each other in the text as in a bibliography (see the examples I gave above).

Chicago describes unidirectional marks as inferior, see: http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/CMS_FAQ/SpecialCharacters/SpecialCharacters10.html

Again, my point about user friendlyness is that users shouldn't have to adjust elaborate settings/lists in their word processor or download extra plugins for an issue like this. It should be enough to tell OOo once how to handle apostrophes (which works fine apart from Zotero insertions) and not worry about it anymore. I really don't know any other way to get this accross in a more intelligible way.
If this is to be resolved by CSL or through the OOo-plugin doesn't really matter to me, as long as it is adjustable both ways and I don't get mixed results.

bdarcus

I'm working on a book for the German publishing house Campus that asks to use only curved marks throughout the text.

Yes, but this is why publishers hire copy editors and such ;-)

I agree that CSL implementations probably ought by default or by configuration do the right typographic thing with quotes. But as noksagt says, it might not be that straightforward.

noksagt

Here's the thread I was really after:
http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/4543/
and:
http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/2387/

It would quite surprise me, though, if any publisher accepts the mixed use of curved and vertical apostrophes

I've had submissions where I've been told to cite both title and author lists exactly as they appear in print. This mixes author names/abbreviations, different casting of titles, etc.

Again, my point about user friendlyness is that users shouldn't have to adjust elaborate settings/lists in their word processor or download extra plugins for an issue like this.

I don't think anyone is really disagreeing with you. But there is no clear "right way" to "fix" this and it isn't even clear to me who should be worrying about the fix (OO.o, Zotero, CSL).

Note that rewriting fields applies to more than just quotation marks:
http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/5875/
http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/5915/

Is this something to be applied with a single citation style or only some documents?

Also, the "problem" is not Zotero-specific. Try copy/pasting your post containing both curly and straight quotes into OO.o writer; none of the marks will be reformatted. Is it "user friendly" for pasted text to act different than Zotero-inserted text?

noksagt

remembering a set of key combinations

Drifting off topic, but this seems like a useful tool:
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/04/02/typography-keyboard-layout-download-now/

Gitty K

publishers that hire copy editors - now we're really drifting off into utopian spheres ;-)
(at least for my field)

As to how, at what level, by whom this should be fixed, I'm afraid I can't be of much help. Like I said before, I understand this may not be trivial. My intention was to provide input from the perspective of user experience and I'm still covinced that the mixed output I get now is problematic under typographic considerations. But I have to leave it to others to determine the consequences.