Given that this feature has been requested by many users for at least 8 years, it's hard to understand why so many other new features have been added ahead of it.
Many things, most completely unrelated to monetization, have been requested by many users for many years, and you shouldn't read much into the order in which they're implemented. Development isn't FIFO or voting-based. There are all sorts of factors that go into those decisions — technical, aesthetic, competitive — but our goal, first and foremost, is to create the best user experience. In this case, we've said for years that we'd accept a patch but that something that creates a more complicated, more error-prone, and more limited experience, with no web or mobile access, wasn't likely to be something we worked on ourselves.
Dan, can a barebones version of linked files for groups be provided sooner? Something that uses the same base directory as MyLibrary, and, for the moment has basic sync with a user choice to turn the sync on/off. Or, no sync until that's possible without hiccups. This will at least allow users like me to have attachments in groups. I have multiple posts where I describe at least one use case where not having linked files in group libraries brought my idea to a dead stop.
No, sorry, definitely not. That would encourage permanent intermingling of linked files from different libraries and create a usage and support nightmare.
I don't understand this: "permanent intermingling of linked files from different libraries." Could you please elaborate? I can see issues if sync of linked file paths is allowed without the feature to set different base paths for each library. But if that's not happening soon, I was suggesting a first step where linked files are allowed in groups but the paths *cannot* be synced. Sure, that means each group member will need to download and attach files, but it's at least a minimum viable product for users like me because I am never going to give up control of my file organization and have Zotero (or any other software) store files.
Also, keeping items updated across groups is non-existent. I am editing the metadata for items in MyLibrary all the time. I tried keeping the same items in other libraries updated but it took only a week to realize it's impossible unless that's my full time job.
I know funds is not the main roadblock, but I happy to contribute a few hundred dollars and with other users who feel passionately about this we can get to a couple thousand. Maybe that's sufficient for someone to move this forward? Dan, from a technical side, is this even feasible for someone outside of the core dev team to do, or it must be done completely in-house (which means the fund raising is no use)?
something that creates a more complicated, more error-prone, and more limited experience, with no web or mobile access, wasn't likely to be something we worked on ourselves
@danstillman - Can you describe a solution to this suboptimal user experience (we cannot share files in groups using our own cloud storage) that mitigates your concerns about complication, error-proneness, experience limitations, and web/mobile access?
It seems that all the solutions suggested by users for many years (e.g., linked files for groups, WebDAV for groups) get critiqued and dismissed, but Zotero developers don't suggest a better solution. Why not? If all possible strategies for Zotero group file sharing via 3rd-party cloud storage are technologically incompatible with Zotero's design, let's clearly establish that (and explain why). If the incompatibility is aesthetic, competitive, philosophical, financial, etc. - let's establish and explain that.
From my reading of the many threads where users describe this suboptimal user experience, the explanations for why it's not being addressed often seem vague, partial, diffuse, etc. That may be why users keep pressing for the same solutions (e.g., linked files, WebDAV). If those aren't viable solutions, please suggest one that is and we can all work toward it.
(It may seem obvious to think "the solution is Zotero Storage," but the suboptimal user experience we're discussing here is precisely that Zotero Storage is the only option for group file sharing.)
Folks, there is an acceptable solution—permitting linked files in Groups using base directory support. The basics of that have been submitted by a community member as a pull request. The delay is waiting for the update to the Zotero preference window framework so that adding the necessary preference pages to let users set the base directory on their computer doesn't interfere with the ongoing development on the rest of the Zotero program.
Well yes -- letting Zotero handle all attached files provides a smoother overall user experience. That was Dan's point and that's almost certainly going to remain the case -- having everything in a single ecosystem makes it much easier to have it run smoothly.
That said, the same limitations Dan lists also apply to linked files for personal libraries, and people still use those, so it's not that the feature is unusable, but it _is_ going to be a trade-off for everyone who does use it.
Intermingled files: if linked files for groups and personal libraries are in the same base directory (as gurdas suggests above), ensuring that the right person has access to the right files is going to be difficult at best, impossible at worst, and even if it may work for some users, those of us doing support will have to try to clean up the messes it causes for many, many others.
(Beyond this, I'd really encourage folks to call this discussion quits. I think both the use case for the feature and devs' position on this are entirely clear. Software features sometimes take time. I know of which I speak: I literally work at a data repository and in spite of >50,000 posts here and thousands of lines of Zotero code I've written, there still is no dataset item type, for example)
Thanks @adamsmith, your answers and clarifications were very helpful.
Overall, I agree that letting Zotero handle "all the datas!" (library metadata and files) makes everything smoother. I also think there are only two reasons why users resist that approach: (1) personal/institutional inertia and (2) price.
The 2nd seems like an opportunity for Zotero to slightly adjust its revenue model in a high-volume low-margin direction to gain many new users. But I'll leave that for another thread.
Software features sometimes take time. I know of which I speak: I literally work at a data repository and in spite of >50,000 posts here and thousands of lines of Zotero code I've written, there still is no dataset item type, for example
Great point - puts this in the bigger context. Also, how can we help get that important item type created?
If and when the linked files feature comes to groups, are we saying it will *force* users to have separate files/paths for attachments associated with items that are in both MyLibrary and in one or more groups? I am never going to allow multiple versions of a PDF.
For me, the benefits of linked files easily outweigh any trade-off of having Zotero store my PDFs in cryptic folders. My file organization is highly evolved over 20 years of storing data and being able to find what I need without the need for a third party software. I love using Zotero to build and manage my bibliography. I don't want to and never will use it to manage my files.
@dstillman , @adamsmith -- any news on this front? Still wondering how to be able to access all the files using the file system at the same time keeping them in the cloud like OneDrive / Google Drive.
If this is still a big issue, kindly advise whether there are options for multi-user scenario. I heard someone mentioned using the same account for all three of us. How is that?
If you are using OneDrive (and I assume Google Drive/Dropbox), you can attach a link to OneDrive/Sharepoint. You just copy the shared link and 'attach' that link. This works for me in the group library and then OneDrive takes care of ensuring you have the correct permissions.
@joycekwc , thanks for bringing this up again. This scheme works as a hack, indeed. However, it's unnecessary laborious and I don't believe it's possible to maintain it in a team of 2+ people.
Just one example. Imagine that people are moving files and folders around OneDrive. Who will take care of updating links in Zotero?
Yes @AlexanderSavenkov you're right - if people are still moving folders around that won't work, and if you've got a lot of files already it can be quite laborious (although not a lot more than storing the PDF files). It all depends on how you use it. We don't use the 'attach link' feature often - we did at the start when people were used to managing files in OneDrive, but now everyone is used to getting things directly from Zotero, most of us just attach it there and use OneDrive more as a backup or for confidential files. We also therefore rarely feel a need to move any files around in OneDrive itself.
Adding my support for integrating this feature! I use the linked attachments feature because I need to access my library from multiple computers. Now I'm using group libraries, and it seems there aren't many options for me, outside of manually uploading each file?
@spencerwhitman88: You can obviously sync files in personal and group libraries between computers using Zotero syncing. You just can't use linked files in group libraries.
@dstillman I'm looking for guidance on moving from a zotfile-linked attachment setup to zotero syncing. Is there an automated method/utility to move all the files from my linked attachments folder back to zotero storage folders.
Alternatively, is it possible to use the linked file attachments for my personal library, and use the zotero syncing for the group libraries?
Upgrade Storage
I can see issues if sync of linked file paths is allowed without the feature to set different base paths for each library. But if that's not happening soon, I was suggesting a first step where linked files are allowed in groups but the paths *cannot* be synced. Sure, that means each group member will need to download and attach files, but it's at least a minimum viable product for users like me because I am never going to give up control of my file organization and have Zotero (or any other software) store files.
Also, keeping items updated across groups is non-existent. I am editing the metadata for items in MyLibrary all the time. I tried keeping the same items in other libraries updated but it took only a week to realize it's impossible unless that's my full time job.
Cross-ref to another post on this topic:
https://forums.zotero.org/discussion/68586
It seems that all the solutions suggested by users for many years (e.g., linked files for groups, WebDAV for groups) get critiqued and dismissed, but Zotero developers don't suggest a better solution. Why not? If all possible strategies for Zotero group file sharing via 3rd-party cloud storage are technologically incompatible with Zotero's design, let's clearly establish that (and explain why). If the incompatibility is aesthetic, competitive, philosophical, financial, etc. - let's establish and explain that.
From my reading of the many threads where users describe this suboptimal user experience, the explanations for why it's not being addressed often seem vague, partial, diffuse, etc. That may be why users keep pressing for the same solutions (e.g., linked files, WebDAV). If those aren't viable solutions, please suggest one that is and we can all work toward it.
(It may seem obvious to think "the solution is Zotero Storage," but the suboptimal user experience we're discussing here is precisely that Zotero Storage is the only option for group file sharing.)
My point is that @danstillman seems to describe that patch as something that ... ... so I'm concerned about its sustainability. I may be misinterpreting him though, so I welcome correction.
That said, the same limitations Dan lists also apply to linked files for personal libraries, and people still use those, so it's not that the feature is unusable, but it _is_ going to be a trade-off for everyone who does use it.
Intermingled files: if linked files for groups and personal libraries are in the same base directory (as gurdas suggests above), ensuring that the right person has access to the right files is going to be difficult at best, impossible at worst, and even if it may work for some users, those of us doing support will have to try to clean up the messes it causes for many, many others.
(Beyond this, I'd really encourage folks to call this discussion quits. I think both the use case for the feature and devs' position on this are entirely clear. Software features sometimes take time. I know of which I speak: I literally work at a data repository and in spite of >50,000 posts here and thousands of lines of Zotero code I've written, there still is no dataset item type, for example)
Overall, I agree that letting Zotero handle "all the datas!" (library metadata and files) makes everything smoother. I also think there are only two reasons why users resist that approach: (1) personal/institutional inertia and (2) price.
The 1st seems like a behavioral phenomenon that's not worth substantial accommodation (e.g., Zotero's features have convinced me to abandon my precious PDF organization system).
The 2nd seems like an opportunity for Zotero to slightly adjust its revenue model in a high-volume low-margin direction to gain many new users. But I'll leave that for another thread. Great point - puts this in the bigger context. Also, how can we help get that important item type created?
For me, the benefits of linked files easily outweigh any trade-off of having Zotero store my PDFs in cryptic folders. My file organization is highly evolved over 20 years of storing data and being able to find what I need without the need for a third party software. I love using Zotero to build and manage my bibliography. I don't want to and never will use it to manage my files.
@dstillman , @adamsmith -- any news on this front? Still wondering how to be able to access all the files using the file system at the same time keeping them in the cloud like OneDrive / Google Drive.
If this is still a big issue, kindly advise whether there are options for multi-user scenario. I heard someone mentioned using the same account for all three of us. How is that?
Just one example. Imagine that people are moving files and folders around OneDrive. Who will take care of updating links in Zotero?
I still hope for a Zotero solution for this.
Still waiting for "Add per library linked attachment base directory support #1673",
@dstillman
There isn't any update in the PR for 2 years. Will this feature be integrated one day?
@dstillman
Alternatively, is it possible to use the linked file attachments for my personal library, and use the zotero syncing for the group libraries?
Thanks.