Check for identical author/editor

simifilm

Maybe I missed something, but is there a way to check whether contributors – for example, author and editor – are identical? In my field, bibliographies like this are quite common:

Doe, John (1998): Article. In: Idem (ed).: Book.

To do this I need the possibilty to check whether two variables are identical, and I don't know whether this is actually implemented.

simon

Gracile

This is a very old thread but my question is the same. I know that testing the content of variable won't happen but another solution might be found at the processor level (like name disambiguation I guess?).

In this thread, MHSmith wrote:

There is one term I miss, probably because it isn't really used in English: "id." (feminine ead., plural iid./eid.), for the same author (citing a second title of his directly after the first one).

This can also be used for e.g. an article by an author in a book of his own (e.g. his collected essays): J. Doe, "Essay", in id., Container — just to make it clear that the container is not a collective work, since there can occasionally be some ambiguity about this. Or even in a collection of essays edited by the same author: … in id. (ed.), Container…

ATM, the only workaround I see is to add "Id." as book author (or editor, etc.) in zotero.
And the workaround for the first problem mentioned by MHSmith is to use "suppress author" and manually edit the citation.

Any idea?

Rintze

I think the main resistance against variable content testing is that we don't want styles that specify strings to test against, since this typically would localize poorly and wouldn't be very robust. Maybe Bruce can chime in here with his opinion.

Comparing whether two variables have the same content is probably more acceptable. I'm not sure if there are any more elegant ways to do this, but one could imagine a simple conditional like:

<choose>
<if same-variable-value="author editor">
...
</if>
</choose>

adamsmith

I think the other concern is that Bruce doesn't like idem in citations (for good reason...) ;-).
More seriously - as a technical issue this doesn't seem too problematic - we're already checking for same authors in various ways for disambiguation and for author-substitute.
The question is how/whethter to implement that on the CSL side - we would probably need some use cases. I believe idem doesn't just exists within one citation, but also, in some styles between two citations, as in:
Thomas Mann, Der Zauberberg, 457.
Idem, Die Buddenbrooks, 710.

IIRC the term is also localized - e.g. in German it's ders./dies. (derselbe, dieselben - might be dieselbe for female authors...)

Gracile

I agree that testing var content is not the good way.
And I know Bruce doesn't like Idem (and I agree too).
Anyway, there are two different issues as it appears in MHSmith post I quoted above. What's common to both is that Idem replace the author name.

1) "Idem" in the same citation:

U. SCARPELLI, « Le problème de la définition du juspositivisme », in Id., Qu'est-ce que le positivisme juridique ?, trad. par C. Clavreul, Paris/Bruxelles, LGDJ et Bruylant, coll. « La pensée juridique », 1996.

2) "Idem" in two subsequent citations (same author, different books):

V. HUGO, Les Misérables, Livre de poche, 2002, p. 127.
ID., La Légende des siècles, Hatier, 1998, p. 45.

E.g.:
www.univ-paris1.fr/fileadmin/Publi_Sorbonne/Recommandations_aux_auteurs.pdf
http://www.mus.ulaval.ca/roberge/gdrm/07-notes.htm
http://66.46.185.79/bdl/gabarit_bdl.asp?id=3320
http://e-spania.revues.org/2403?&id=2403

fbennett

Inside the citeproc-js processor, it might be possible to piggy-back this on the names disambiguation registry. If names were to remember their first-mention position within the document, it might be possible to leverage that for dynamic refreshes (which we have to support). It would take a lot of effort, although maybe not a fantastic amount of effort. Feels kind of like Summer of Code territory.

Devin Roza

+1

I am currently in charge of two different styles, and both require this: substituting "Id." instead of the second author's name when two citations follow each other within the same footnote by the same author.

Gracile

For future reference, this was raised again: http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/25726/

Edit Feb. 2013: http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/27564/

zuphilip

It is possible to substitute the same subsequent authors in the bibliography, but not in citations. Is this (still) the current status, or did I miss some options here? I guess, it is not as easy as to "copy and paste" the handling in the bibliography for subsequent same authors to citations?

adamsmith

that's correct. My guess would be that this isn't actually terribly hard on the processor side, but we'd first have to define this in CSL. It's on my wish list in general.

zuphilip

Okay, thank you for the information. I created an entry in the knowlege base about idem. Feel free to improve/translate it.

fbennett

It should be possible to extend the processor to do this, but it would not be perfectly straightforward to set up. Here are a few things we would need to settle before starting:

(1) Whether "id." would apply to items with multiple names;
(2) If (1), then whether "id.":
--(a) should be triggered only by a full match of all names, or
--(b) should apply to names at matching positions, or
--(c) either, depending on the style;
(3) If (2)(a), then whether names behind et al. should affect the match;
(4) Whether "id." would be available in styles that perform by-cite disambiguation by expanding given names; and
(5) If (4), whether expanded name forms affecting a name replaced by "id." should be reflected in the preceding partner.

Implementation and testing could get pretty tricky, depending on how much of that is put into the specification.

adamsmith

My inclination would be to go with
1) yes
2) a)
3) yes
@zuphilip - what do you think?

4 and 5 I don't follow--do you have an example for me?

fbennett

As far as I can tell, if only (2)(a) is implemented, (4) & (5) will not be an issue.

Gracile

My inclination would be to go with
1) yes
2) a)
3) yes

+1. thanks for thinking about this!
(and a new term "idem" will have to be added to the existing list)

zuphilip

There are citation manuals who distinguish between female (eadem) and male (idem) authors, and singular and plural authorship. I don't know if this also can be the case for English style manuals. Polnish wikipedia has an example for a style with idem and eadem.

The terms in German would be "Ders. = Derselbe" for idem, "Dies. = Diesselbe" for eadem and sometimes "Dies. = Dieselben" for multiple authors, cf. here page 6. Do we have the information about the gender of the author in CSL?

Some other observations from the same style guide:

It is possible that idem is replacing only part of the authorship, e.g. p. 9 (but not on page 8):

Larenz, Karl, Lehrbuch des Schuldrechts, Bd. 1: Allgemeiner Teil, 14. Aufl., München 1987; Bd. 2: Besonderer Teil, 1. Halbband, 13. Aufl., München 1986 [zitiert: Larenz, SchuldR AT bzw. BT 1].
Ders./Canaris, Claus-Wilhelm, Lehrbuch des Schuldrechts, Bd. 2: Besonderer Teil, 2. Halbband, 13. Aufl., München 1994

It is possible that idem is occuring in combination with et-al, e.g. p. 21:

Schoch, in: ders. u.a., VwGO, § 80 [Stand: 2/1998] Rn. 26


Moreover, this style guide writes that the "Ders./Dies." should be given grammatically correct, i.e. it sometimes changes to "dens. = denselben", e.g. p. 22

Vgl. von Mutius, Jura 1984, 193 (195); dens., Jura 1988, 30 (31)

adamsmith

Unless I'm misunderstanding, we might be able to do some version of this:

Larenz, Karl, Lehrbuch des Schuldrechts, Bd. 1: Allgemeiner Teil, 14. Aufl., München 1987; Bd. 2: Besonderer Teil, 1. Halbband, 13. Aufl., München 1986 [zitiert: Larenz, SchuldR AT bzw. BT 1].
Ders./Canaris, Claus-Wilhelm, Lehrbuch des Schuldrechts, Bd. 2: Besonderer Teil, 2. Halbband, 13. Aufl., München 1994

already via subsequent-author-substitute (though, of course, not gender correct).

We don't store information on the gender of the author (neither in Zotero nor in citeproc-JSON) and I don't think that'll be manageable, to be honest.

WRT the rest: oh my, what a mess...

Jean-Baptiste Camps

To give a point of comparison, on the LaTeX side, about the idem/eidem/eadem/eaedem, and subsequent author in notes, this is managed by BibLaTeX, by adding a gender field in the database and tracking author names (cf. http://www.ctan.org/pkg/biblatex).

adamsmith

Thanks. Easier to do for BibLaTeX since they aren't concerned with GUIs. Putting something in the GUI that will almost never auto-populated and is only relevant for a tiny faction of users is probably a bad trade-off--and most of CSLs big users are GUI products.
(And it still that doesn't solve the problem entirely: we're left with both the grammatical issue raised by zuphilip and the problem of what to do with authors who have pronoun preferences from male/female).

emilianoeheyns

If it's conceptually clear, just not used often, why not add it with cheater syntax? That way people who do need it need not go without merely because it's never auto-populated. That also bypasses the GUI issue.