van, de in author names wrong in style sheet De Buck

EBoersma
Dutch names with 'van' or 'de' appear wrong in De Buck style:

In the first citation it appears as:

N.C.F. Van Sas, De metamorfose van Nederland.
- I would like it to appear as N.C.F. van Sas.

Following citations are correct: Van Sas,

In the bibliography it appears as: Van Sas, N.C.F., which in itself is correct but it should be alphabetically under 'S' instead of under 'V'.

Can anyone correct this? Thanks!
  • adamsmith
    IIRC we can't handle the capitalization 100% because the treatment of "van" is inconsistent at times even within a language (at least in the US you have some "van" and some "Van"). But do you have van entered in Zotero with lowercase or uppercase?

    The sort order, though, we should be able to get right.
  • EBoersma
    I entered the author's lastnam as Van Sas (with uppercase. It would be a great help if you would be able to get the sort order right.
  • adamsmith
    edited September 6, 2014
    the sorting comes our right for me. "Van Bloom" (as well as "van Bloom") both sort before "Smith" for me.

    Could you paste an excerpt of the bib that shows the incorrect sorting?
    (and I assume this is using Zotero, yes? This is the type of thing that other reference managers could easily get wrong).
  • EBoersma
    you are right: it is sorted correctly. But I would like to see it in this form: Sas, N.C.F. van,
    instead of: Van Sas, N.C.F.,

    Would that be possible?
  • fbennett
    What happens if you enter the name as:

    Last Name: Sas
    First Name: N.C.F., van

    (Writing in haste, haven't tested, but I think that will do it, if the dropping-particle option in the style is set appropriately.)
  • EBoersma
    yes, that works and it is how I usually do this.
    But it gives the problem that footnotes are without 'van', ie they appear as:
    - first reference: N.C.F. van Sas, (which is correct)
    - 2nd reference: Sas, => instead of Van Sas,

    I guess this is unsolvable unless Zotero finds a solution in the database itself, f.i. a seperate field for what in Dutch is called 'tussenvoegsels'i.e. insertions like ('van', 'van de(r)' and 'de' in names)?
  • RintzeRintze
    What happens if you enter the name as:

    Last Name: Sas
    First Name: N.C.F., van
    But then "van" would be treated as a dropping particle, right? Dutch particles never drop.

    Perhaps we should allow "text-case" on cs:name, so we can use "capitalize-first" for the names in in-text citations? We currently can only use it on cs:name-part, which would be problematic in case of name disambiguation (when "Van Sas" should become "N.C.F. van Sas").
  • adamsmith
    Two separate issues: as I say above, the capitalization isn't currently possible. I like allowing text-case on cs:name for that.

    The sorting and display behavior, however, is:

    Setting demote-non-dropping-particle="always

    gives me

    First citation:
    Firstname van Lastname

    Subsequent citation:
    van Lastname

    Bibliography:
    Lastname, Firstname van

    which I believe is what EBoersma wants.
    Is that what de Buck requires? Can you cite from the documentation on that?
  • aurimas
    From previous discussions (e.g. https://forums.zotero.org/discussion/27822/von-van-de-in-authors-name-appear-as-von-van-de/) it seems that your can't define this behavior in the style, but have to do it in metadata itself. So we're back to the discussion we had previously about a way in metadata to protect case.
  • fbennett
    edited September 9, 2014
    We currently can only use [capitalize-first] on cs:name-part, which would be problematic in case of name disambiguation.
    Side note: I wonder if normalizing text case when comparing for disambiguation would be safe? That would be easy to do, if it were adopted by the CSL spec.
  • fbennett
    @rintze: Does this mean that we have three types of particle, not two? That is, dropping, non-dropping, and ... Higgs?
  • RintzeRintze
    I wonder if normalizing text case when comparing for disambiguation would be safe? That would be easy to do, if it were adopted by the CSL spec.
    I think that case-insensitive name matching would be usually preferred, yes.
  • EBoersma
    I was wondering whether the new version offers the possibility to solve this problem.
  • fbennett
    It's a long-lurking processor issue. I'll try normalizing text case when sniffing for known particles, and see if it breaks other tests.
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