csl-proc : aggressive stripping of duplicate punctuations?

Gracile

It does not seem possible to code a style which add a period [or, actually, any punctuation mark, except a comma] as a delimiter after titles in **every** case. When a title ends with a punctuation mark, the subsequent period [any punctuation, except comma] is removed. It's certainly a good practice if the title ends with a period, but I'm not sure of the other cases (examples below). The original question is here.

Book :
Cléro, Jean-Pierre. 2007. Qu’est-ce que l’autorité? Chemins philosophiques. Paris: J. Vrin.
Kelsen, Hans. 1962. Théorie pure du droit. Traduit par Charles Eisenmann. Philosophie du droit 7. Paris: Dalloz.

Should be:
Cléro, Jean-Pierre. 2007. Qu’est-ce que l’autorité?. Chemins philosophiques. Paris: J. Vrin.

Book Chapter:
Mares, Isabela. 2001a. « Firms and the Welfare State: When, Why, and How Does Social Policy Matter to Employers ». In Varieties of Capitalism. The Institutional Foundations of Comparative Advantage, édité par Peter A Hall et David Soskice, 184‑213. New York: Oxford University Press.
———. 2001b. « Firms and the Welfare State: When, Why, and How Does Social Policy Matter to Employers? » In Varieties of Capitalism. The Institutional Foundations of Comparative Advantage, édité par Peter A Hall et David Soskice, 184‑213. New York: Oxford University Press.

Should be:
———. 2001b. « Firms and the Welfare State: When, Why, and How Does Social Policy Matter to Employers? ». In Varieties of Capitalism. The Institutional Foundations of Comparative Advantage, édité par Peter A Hall et David Soskice, 184‑213. New York: Oxford University Press.

Edit: FWIW, http://web.archive.org/web/20070930215626/http://www.collectionscanada.ca/iso/tc46sc9/standard/690-1e.htm#6.4 :

A consistent system of punctuation shall be used for all references included in a publication.

Each element of the reference shall be clearly separated from subsequent elements, e.g. by means of intervening punctuation (full stop, dash, etc.).

A consistent form of punctuation shall also be used to distinguish individual sub-elements within an element.

NOTE - In order to emphasize the importance of consistency, a uniform scheme of punctuation and typographic distinction has been used in the examples throughout this International Standard [i.e. ISO 690:1987]. The scheme is only intended to be illustrative, however, and does not form part of this International Standard.

adamsmith

Hmm - this is definitely required in most US styles - you'd never want a period after question mark or an exclamation mark and I don't see an alternative to citeproc stripping these aggressively. (see e.g. CMoS 14.105: "When a title ending with a question mark or an exclamation mark would normally be followed by a period, the period is omitted".)

I read the thread you link to quickly, and I don't see any link to a styleguide that has an example that requires double punctuation - there's only the exhortation to be "consistent" - I'm not sure that means adding periods after question marks. Are you really sure "?." is required? Can you find an example? It looks like a typological crime to me.

Gracile

Thanks for the reference to CMoS. No easy access to these guides here.

Look at the book chapter/article example. It's clear for me that it should be (in French, of course) ? ». That was the OP's question.

The other question is about books. What to do is not clear but, fortunately, it's a rare case.
Indeed, it might look like a typographic crime to have ?. and it was my first reaction. But ?, can be considered as a crime too.
Anyway, I'd argue that the duplicate punctuation is not absolutely necessary in our case since the title is italicized and, as a consequence, clearly distinct from the rest of the reference.

Point d'interrogation : généralités :

Le point d’interrogation marque habituellement la fin de la phrase et tient donc lieu de ponctuation de fin de phrase; c’est pourquoi on ne le fait pas suivre d’un point. Le mot qui suit, qui commence l’autre phrase, prend alors la majuscule. Cependant, lorsque le point d’interrogation fait partie d’un titre cité dans la phrase et que ce titre est en italique, souligné ou entre guillemets, on peut mettre une virgule ou un point après le titre afin de bien différencier la ponctuation de la phrase et celle du titre.

Exemples :
- Je l’attendais depuis des heures. Quand arriverait-il? Je perdais patience.
- Voulait-elle des enfants? C’est tout ce qui importait pour lui.
- Solange s’apprête à relire Où es-tu?.

Also: http://66.46.185.79/bdl/gabarit_bdl.asp?Th=2&t1=&id=3407&D=Virgule et incise

adamsmith

ugh. So what do you suggest? We localize that option?

Gracile

Does CMoS 14.105 really address the book chapter case ? The title is not followed by the period, there's a guillemet beteween them.

adamsmith

In US-English punctuation that doesn't apply. Punctuation marks are always placed inside quotation marks, whether they're part of the title or not. That's different in UK English, so we could see whether MHRA has an opinion on this.

(To clarify this: the sequence ". does not exist in US-English, ever)

adamsmith

Indeed, while not referring to a reference (MHRA uses commas after titles), it has

The pause is followed by Richard’s demanding ‘will no man say “Amen”?’.

So could be that quotation marks should just disable that rule, which would be easier to do I believe (and not require a CSL change).

Gracile

Ah, indeed!

Not exactly what we're looking for but MHRA, p. 51:
The pause is followed by Richard’s demanding ‘will no man say
“Amen”?’.
Why does Shakespeare give Malcolm the banal question ‘Oh, by
whom?’?

Edit: cross-posting ;-)

The "book issue" remains. I'll investigate.

adamsmith

first ;-)

Rintze

Frank recently prepared some tests that document the current citeproc-js behavior:

https://bitbucket.org/bdarcus/citeproc-test/src/tip/processor-tests/humans/punctuation_FullMontyPlain.txt
https://bitbucket.org/bdarcus/citeproc-test/src/tip/processor-tests/humans/punctuation_FullMontyQuotesIn.txt
https://bitbucket.org/bdarcus/citeproc-test/src/tip/processor-tests/humans/punctuation_FullMontyQuotesOut.txt
https://bitbucket.org/bdarcus/citeproc-test/src/tip/processor-tests/humans/punctuation_FullMontyField.txt

I would like to see some more discussion on the desired rules so we can include some language concerning punctuation suppression in the CSL spec.

adamsmith

So currently it looks like we should _not_ remove double punctuation where it's on two sides of a quotation mark. We should probably check in some other language, I'll see if I can find something in German or Spanish.