Help editing France style

BarilG

Finally, even if I know not much about programming, I am trying to edit the France style to meet the TOPO style guide specifications. I need help for a peculiar modification concerning author names.

Here is the modified code sequence :

<macro name="author">
<names variable="author" suffix=" ">
<name sort-separator=", " name-as-sort-order="first" delimiter=", " and="text" delimiter-precedes-last="always">
<name-part name="family" font-variant="small-caps"/>
<name-part name="given" font-variant="normal"/>
</name>
<label form="short" prefix=", " suffix="." text-case="uppercase" strip-periods="true"/>
<substitute>
<names variable="editor"/>
</substitute>
</names>
</macro>

The result is OK, if two authors.
Example: DECKELBAUM, R.J., et C.L. WILLIAMS

But we don't want the comma separator before the "et" if more than two authors.
Example: result with the present code:
FLORIN, Todd A., Justine SHULTS, et Nicolas STETTLER
result needed:
FLORIN, Todd A., Justine SHULTS et Nicolas STETTLER

Someone can tell me how to program this conditional punctuation?

Gracile

Bonjour,
sauf erreur de ma part, c'est impossible actuellement. (Je pense que cette hypothèse n'a d'ailleurs jamais été soulevée. Il faut voir ce qu'en disent @bdarcus, @fbennett, @rmzelle, @adamsmith notamment)

Cf. http://citationstyles.org/downloads/specification.html#name

C'est un des problèmes que j'avais noté lorsque j'ai commencé à travailler sur votre style...

BarilG

@bdarcus
@fbennett
@rmzelle
@adamsmith

What do you think?
Is it possible or not?

Rintze

This is currently not possible in CSL (with the forthcoming CSL 1.0.1 it will be possible to do the reverse, i.e. include a comma before "et" only when there are three or more names). I also think this is the first time we have come across this particular requirement.

BarilG

This requirement is consistent with the recommendations of the Office québécois de la langue française. I know that French speaking people in Europe are more and more adapting the citation styles to the English language, but it is less common in Québec...

The recommended sorting form for the authors name is like this :
FAMILY, Given, et Given FAMILY
FAMILY, Given, Given FAMILY et Given FAMILY
FAMILY, Given, Given FAMILY, Given FAMILY et Given FAMILY
etc.

Could I address a request to the CSL developers to make this form possible in the future? How could it be done?

Rintze

Is there any online documentation that describes this (e.g. the TOPO style guide)? Is this something common to French? @Gracile, do you know of any more examples? The more common a requirement is, the higher the chance that we'll add support for it in CSL.

BarilG

TOPO style guide (sorry but the INSPQ Web site is temporarily closed in reason of cyberattacks by Anonymous on the government Web sites):
http://www.inspq.qc.ca/pdf/publications/CollectionTOPO/TOPO_zoterostyleguide.pdf

Guide de présentation des citations et des références bibliographiques, École nationale d'administration publique (ENAP):
http://www.bibliotheque.enap.ca/Bibliotheque/docs/Formation_documentaire/Guide_pres_citations_ref_biblio.pdf

Recommendations of the Office québécois de la langue française concerning the « Éléments de la notice bibliographique » :
http://66.46.185.79/bdl/gabarit_bdl.asp?id=3245

BarilG

Have you made a decision about adding it to CSL?

BarilG

@Rintze

Sorry to be bothersome with this request, but I came across something today that would be worth telling you. I promote the use of Zotero among my colleagues, and it is usually easy to demonstrate the superiority of Zotero over ReferenceManager (the supported reference management tool at the Institute). But RefMan offers the possibility to generate bibliography with or without a comma before the "et" in the authors list. Even if it is not a primary issue, it would be a real disappointment not to get that in CSL.

Rintze

The next version of CSL will introduce the "delimiter-precedes-et-al" attribute, which makes it possible to either a) always include a comma before "et", b) never include this comma, or c) only include the comma when there are three or more authors (so you get "Doe et Smith" and "Doe, Smith, et Johnson"). You are describing a fourth situation, which is the inverse of c), namely you only want the comma when there are two authors. From what I gather, it seems that this is limited to Canadian French?

I'm not opposed to adding support for this. I was hoping to hear from other users whether this is a more common requirement (there are a few francophone users on these forums). In addition, I've been thinking about the best way to add support for this: we currently refer to option (c) as "contextual", and this would effectively be "contextual-inverse", or something like that. I'm trying to come up with a better term.

BarilG

Thanks a lot address this issue! Unfortunately, I can't be helpful in terms of how doing this...

Gracile

I don't know any other example (I'm far from being a specialist) but what BarilG explained seems sufficient to me.

Rintze, the new "delimiter-precedes-et-al" attribute may have to be extended, indeed, but am I wrong if I understand the issue as (mainly) related to the "delimiter-precedes-last" attribute?
If I'm not wrong, the value "contextual-inverse" should be added to both attributes.

Rintze

@Gracile, yes, sorry for being sloppy. The current case would need extension of "delimiter-precedes-last", not "delimiter-precedes-et-al".

Rintze

@BarilG, do you know if there are styles that abbreviate long name lists and use a similar punctuation rule? I wonder if we also need:

"J. Doe, et al."
"J. Doe, S. Smith et al."

I checked ENAP ("Watson, T.J., et autres") and Office québécois de la langue française ("BEM, Jeanne, et collab."), which both abbreviate to only show the first author, so CSL already supports those cases. I can't access the TOPO style guide.

Edit: I created a ticket for your initial request: https://github.com/citation-style-language/schema/issues/97

BarilG

Thanks again for agreeing this request.
Reading your ticket, I am not sure the issue is clear, and I will try to explain it more clearly.

A basic rule of French syntax is concerned here. Generally, the comma and the "et" are equivalent. In a list of two, the items are separated by "et". In a list of more than two, the itemms are separated by commas, but the last two items who are separated by "et".
List:
"Les yeux et la bouche."
"Les yeux, la bouche et le nez."

Nevertheless, there are cases where the "et" is preceded by a comma, namely when words are put between commas, as between brackets.
Sentence:
"Il marchait, les yeux au ciel, et ne voyait pas la pelure de banane."

In our issue, the problem is due to the reversal of the order of first name and surname of the first author only. The result is bracketing the first name of the first author, when there are two authors in the list.
"BOURDIEU, P., et J.-P. CHAMBOREDON"
When there are more than two authors, the comma is not needed before the "et", as generally in French.
"BOURDIEU, P., J.-P. CHAMBOREDON et J.-P. PASSERON"

To answer the question in your last comment, there are styles that abbreviate to show more than two authors in the bibliography. The abbreviation to show the first author usually concern the in-text citations.
So, we need:
"DOE et al."
"J. DOE et al."
"DOE, J., et al." (not "J. DOE, et al.", but if I am not wrong this makes no difference to the issue)
"J. DOE, S. SMITH et al."

(French styles would use as abbreviation for authors: "et collab.", "et autres" or "et al.". The italics would be needed for "et al.", given that it is in Latin language.)

Gracile

the problem is due to the reversal of the order of first name and surname of the first author only

Thanks, I had not understood the rationale!
"contextual-inverse" (whatever the name) should be added to both "delimiter-precedes-et-al" and "delimiter-precedes-last" attributes.

adamsmith

that's very helpful as an explanation - I would rethink how we approach this then.
If I understand correctly, in styles following these rules, there is always a comma after a name in what CSL calls "sort-order" (i.e. in the form lastname, firstname/initial) - unfortunately it's not quite always - this doesn't apply to single authors.

So if we just add an option to the name-as-sort-order option that's something like "first-with-delimiter" that would solve both the "et al
and the "et" cases here.

Also, using contextual-inverse _won't_ work, if I understand this correctly. Imagine e.g. a piece authored by two institutions. That would be
OECD et UNESCO (or whatever they abbreviate as in French ;-) rather then OECD, et UNESCO.

so we would use for the cases BarliG provides:
<name sort-separator=", " name-as-sort-order="first-with-delimiter" delimiter=", " and="text" delimiter-precedes-last="never">
to be clear - this is a proposal, not something that exists already.

Rintze

Are there any styles we are aware of that require the following?

DECKELBAUM, R.J. et C.L. WILLIAMS

If we come to the conclusion that we always need the name delimiter after a flipped name, we don't need a toggle.

adamsmith

good point - all of the usual suspects (APA, Chicago, ASA, AAA, APSA) have a comma before the end.

Rintze

I found these examples in Freshwater Biology, a Wiley journal:

Sala O.E., Chapin F.S., Armesto J.J., Berlow E., Bloomfield J.,
Dirzo R. et al. (2000) Biodiversity: global biodiversity
scenarios for the year 2100. Science, 287, 1770–1774.

Schindler D.E. & Scheuerell M.D. (2002) Habitat coupling in
lake ecosystems. Oikos, 98, 177–189.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2427.2011.02688.x/pdf

So I guess we do need the toggle.

Rintze

@adamsmith, this is really something that needs to be set on the "delimiter-precedes-et-al" and "delimiter-precedes-last" attributes. "name-as-sort-order" should only control the order of name-parts. The logic we need seems to be:

only include the name delimiter before the [last name]/["et-al" term] if the preceding name is flipped as a result of name-as-sort-order

(this would exclude names that can't be flipped, such as UNESCO)

We could call the option "after-flipped-name", or something like that. E.g.

name-as-sort-order="first" and delimiter-precedes-last="after-flipped-name":
"Red Cross, OECD and UNESCO"
"Doe, J., G. Brown and D. Smith"
"Doe, J., and D. Smith"
"Doe and Smith"

name-as-sort-order="all" and delimiter-precedes-last="after-flipped-name":
"Red Cross, OECD and UNESCO"
"Doe, J., Brown, G., and Smith, D."
"Doe, J., and Smith, D."
"Doe and Smith"

Rintze

One more question. What happens in cases where a name isn't flipped, but still ends on a period, such as is the case for name suffixes (see also http://citationstyles.org/downloads/specification.html#name-part-order ). Do we get

"Doe, J., G. Brown Jr. and D. Smith"

or

"Doe, J., G. Brown Jr., and D. Smith"

BarilG

From my point of view (in the case of TOPO style), it makes more sense to omit the comma before the last name if the preceding-last is not flipped, even if it ends on a period.

"Doe, J., G. Brown Jr. et D. Smith"

Rintze

@adamsmith, are you okay with my proposal three posts up?

adamsmith

sounds good to me. To keep terminology unified I'd suggest calling the option "after-sort-ordered-name" but I see that's a big of a hyphenated monster, so I'd be OK with flipped, too.

Rintze

I thought about that, but the trouble is that Asian names are always in sort order, even when not flipped, and those names shouldn't trigger the insertion of a following comma.

Rintze

I settled on "after-inverted-name". Open for review/comments:

https://github.com/citation-style-language/schema/issues/97#issuecomment-6620122

Cakebaker

I am new to Zotero and need to create the ENAP style mentioned by BarilG on May 31st 2012, except that an updated version is available at: http://www.enap.ca/enap/docs/Portail_etudiant/Services_offerts/Guide_pour_redaction/Guide_cit_ref_recto_sept_2012.pdf
It seems to be the most well researched style resource I have found for references for use in Quebec.
How would I go about finding the closest match? I don't know if I will be able to modify it seeing as I no expertise, but am willing to give it a shot.