Selbe Quelle mehrfach zitieren --> Nahme weg oder "ibid."

J.W. Harding

Hallo,

ich nutze "Harvard Reference format 7 (Author-Date) (de) (dev)" und frage mich, wie ich es hin bekomme, dass Zotero, wenn die selbe Quelle im Textkörper mehrfach hintereinander zitiert wird, lediglich bei der ersten Nennung den Autor, und danach:

- (bei selber Quelle aber anderer Seite:) nurnoch die Seite, oder
- (bei selber Quelle und selber Seite:) "ibid."

an stelle des Namen in die Klammer einfügt.

Würde mich freuen sehr, wenn mir da jemand weiterhelfen könnte!

Herzlichen Dank!
JWH

adamsmith

Du musst den Stil dafür verändern.
guck Dir die <citation> section von einem der Chicago Styles an - die sind zwar für Fußnoten, aber der generelle Mechanismus funktioniert für in-text, author-date Styles genauso.
unterschiedliche Zitierweisen abhängig von gleicher Seite oder nicht sind allerdings nicht möglich.

J.W. Harding

Vielen Dank für den Hinweis!!! Ich habe wie von Dir vorgeschlagen versucht den Stil entsprechend anzupassen... leider bekomme ich beim Installationsversuch nun die Meldung es handele sich nicht um eine CLS-Datei... ich fürchte ich habe die CLS irgendwie kaputt-geschraubt :)

So sieht die citation section bei mir aktuell aus (bitte nicht lachen):

<citation>
<option name="et-al-min" value="3"/>
<option name="et-al-use-first" value="1"/>
<option name="et-al-subsequent-min" value="3"/>
<option name="et-al-subsequent-use-first" value="1"/>
<option name="disambiguate-add-year-suffix" value="true"/>
<option name="disambiguate-add-names" value="false"/>
<option name="collapse" value="year"/>
<layout prefix="(" suffix=")" delimiter="; ">
<choose>
<if position="ibid-with-locator">
<group delimiter=", ">
<text term="ibid" text-case="capitalize-first" suffix="."/>
<text macro="point-locators-subsequent"/>
</group>
</if>
<else-if position="ibid">
<text term="ibid" text-case="capitalize-first" suffix="."/>
</else-if>
<else-if position="subsequent">
<group delimiter=", ">
<text macro="author-short"/>
<text macro="year-date"/>
</group>
<group>
<label variable="locator" form="short" suffix=". "/>
<text variable="locator"/>
</group>
</group>
</layout>
</citation>

Was habe ich nur falsch gemacht?

fbennett

I don't have German, but there is an error in your CSL syntax, and the conditional statement leaves out one of the possible positions for a cite. I've made some notes below; adamsmith will follow up, and tell you if I've missed anything, but this may help in the meantime.
<citation>
<option name="et-al-min" value="3"/>
<option name="et-al-use-first" value="1"/>
<option name="et-al-subsequent-min" value="3"/>
<option name="et-al-subsequent-use-first" value="1"/>
<option name="disambiguate-add-year-suffix" value="true"/>
<option name="disambiguate-add-names" value="false"/>
<option name="collapse" value="year"/>
<layout prefix="(" suffix=")" delimiter="; ">
<choose>
<if position="ibid-with-locator">
<group delimiter=", ">
<text term="ibid" text-case="capitalize-first" suffix="."/>
<text macro="point-locators-subsequent"/>
</group>
</if>
<else-if position="ibid">
<text term="ibid" text-case="capitalize-first" suffix="."/>
</else-if>
<else-if position="subsequent">
<group delimiter=", ">
<text macro="author-short"/>
<text macro="year-date"/>
</group>
<group>
<label variable="locator" form="short" suffix=". "/>
<text variable="locator"/>
</group>
</group>&lt;!-- ### Delete this line ### --&gt;
&lt;!-- ### Use something like this instead ... ### --&gt;
</else-if>
<else>
&lt;!-- ### Insert CSL for first-reference cite form here ### --&gt;
</else>
</choose>
&lt;!-- ### ... down to here --&gt;
</layout>
</citation>

J.W. Harding

hello fbennett. thanks for you helpful advice. however i am unsure concering two of your remarks. bolow you see what i have changed in the CLS with comments in the two places where i was not sure what so do:

<citation>
<option name="et-al-min" value="3"/>
<option name="et-al-use-first" value="1"/>
<option name="et-al-subsequent-min" value="3"/>
<option name="et-al-subsequent-use-first" value="1"/>
<option name="disambiguate-add-year-suffix" value="true"/>
<!-- <option name="disambiguate-add-names" value="false"/>
<option name="collapse" value="year"/>
<layout prefix="(" suffix=")" delimiter="; ">
<choose>
<if position="ibid-with-locator">
<group delimiter=", ">
<text term="ibid" text-case="capitalize-first" suffix="."/>
<text macro="point-locators-subsequent"/>
</group>
</if>
<else-if position="ibid">
<text term="ibid" text-case="capitalize-first" suffix="."/>
</else-if>
<else-if position="subsequent">
<group delimiter=", ">
<text macro="author-short"/>
<text macro="year-date"/>
</group>
<group>
<label variable="locator" form="short" suffix=". "/>
<text variable="locator"/>
</group>
</else-if>
<else>
<!-- ### WHAT SHOULD I TO PUT HERE??? ### -->
</else>
</choose>
<!-- ### WHAT SHOULD I TO PUT HERE??? ###-->
</layout>
</citation>

Cheers!
JWH

fbennett

What goes in the first slot depends on what you want the cite to look like for the first reference to a source. If it should be a normal author-date reference like your "subsequent" form, then change else-if position="subsequent to else, change the closing /else-if tag to /else, and delete the else span that I suggested before.

The syntax is very simple -- it's just balanced tags, similar to XHTML. If you're still stuck, adamsmith or another German speaker will be your best bet for assistance (not only for linguistic reasons -- in my time zone here it is late evening, and I will be snoozing shortly).

J.W. Harding

hey sorry for keeping you up! :)

yes, the first cite should be a normal author-date-page reference. everything following that first cite sould (as long as it is refering to the same source) be missing author and date so that there is only the pagenumber in the brackets, respectively only "ibid." if the cite refers not only to the same book but the exact same page as the above reference.

i am just starting to get used to the syntax (with no experience what so ever) ... so this is why i am easily confused. according to your suggestions i played around with the CSL again and it is still not working. this is the current desaster:

</macro>
<citation>
<option name="et-al-min" value="3"/>
<option name="et-al-use-first" value="1"/>
<option name="et-al-subsequent-min" value="3"/>
<option name="et-al-subsequent-use-first" value="1"/>
<option name="disambiguate-add-year-suffix" value="true"/>
<!-- <option name="disambiguate-add-names" value="false"/>
<option name="collapse" value="year"/>
<layout prefix="(" suffix=")" delimiter="; ">
<choose>
<if position="ibid-with-locator">
<group delimiter=", ">
<text term="ibid" text-case="capitalize-first" suffix="."/>
<text macro="point-locators-subsequent"/>
</group>
</if>
<else-if position="ibid">
<text term="ibid" text-case="capitalize-first" suffix="."/>
</else-if>
<else>
<group delimiter=", ">
<text macro="author-short"/>
<text macro="year-date"/>
</group>
<group>
<label variable="locator" form="short" suffix=". "/>
<text variable="locator"/>
</group>
</else>
</layout>
</citation>
<bibliography>

are you maybe able to fix that according to the desired format?

thank's a lot for the assistance!!!
cheers!
JWH

adamsmith

ich habe gerade keine Zeit das komplett zu machen, aber:

Wenn Du ein Macro benutzt, muss es vorher definiert sein:
<text macro="point-locators-subsequent"/>
gibt es in Harvard 7 nicht - das kommt aus Chicago.

Ohne jetzt groß getestet zu haben, probiers mal hiermit:
<citation>
<option name="et-al-min" value="3"/>
<option name="et-al-use-first" value="1"/>
<option name="et-al-subsequent-min" value="3"/>
<option name="et-al-subsequent-use-first" value="1"/>
<option name="disambiguate-add-year-suffix" value="true"/>
<option name="collapse" value="year"/>
<layout prefix="(" suffix=")" delimiter="; ">
<choose>
<if position="ibid-with-locator">
<label variable="locator" form="short" suffix=". "/>
<text variable="locator"/>
</if>
<else-if position="ibid">
<text term="ibid" text-case="capitalize-first" suffix="."/>
</else-if>
<else>
<group delimiter=", ">
<text macro="author-short"/>
<text macro="year-date"/>
</group>
<group>
<label variable="locator" form="short" suffix=". "/>
<text variable="locator"/>
</group>
</else>
</layout>
</citation>
<bibliography>

J.W. Harding

hallo adamsmith
vielen dank für den korrektur-versuch! leider bekomme ich immer noch die meldung "...scheint keine gültige CLS datei zu sein", wenn ich die änderungen übernehmen will.
wird ein macro an den stellen definiert, wo steht: "macro name=" ...usw. oder was bedeutet "macro muss vorher definiert sein"?
grüße
JWH

adamsmith

wird ein macro an den stellen definiert, wo steht: "macro name=" ...usw. oder was bedeutet "macro muss vorher definiert sein"?

genau das, ja.

zum einen sollte es csl und nicht cls sein.
Zum zweiten bin ich mir ziemlich sicher, dass das so richtig ist - wahrscheinlich gibt es irgendwo anders ein Problem -
hast Du mal probiert auf validator.nu zu validieren?
Sonst kannst Du auch den kompletten post in ein Fenster auf gist.github.com kopieren,
"create public gist" und die URL hier posten.

J.W. Harding

also ich habe in der csl (nicht cls:) zuletzt nur die citation section entsprechend deiner eingaben angepasst. ich scheine also wo anders noch ein problem drin zu haben. ich habe mich mal an deinen tipp gehalten und den validator angewendet; werde allerdings nicht ganz schlau aus den ergebnissen. dewegen habe ich mich auch an deinen zweiten tipp gehalten und ein public gist 'created". hier die URL:
http://gist.github.com/394987

fbennett

Doesn't validate::

fatal: The element type "choose" must be terminated by the matching end-tag "</choose>".

(EDIT: confirmed that the CSL does validate if this single error is corrected.

@J.W. Harding: this is an example of the need for "balanced tags". Things will not work as expected if the basic CSL syntax is not valid. The converse is also true. Validation makes all the difference. :)

J.W. Harding

ok, but where exactly do i put the end-tag?

fbennett

Immediately after the </else> tag, as shown in the recommended changes that I posted before, and that you posted back. The indentation in my original response was not just for decorative purposes; it shows the nesting of the elements, and where the tags are not balanced. It's really very simple, once you grasp the concept: every open tag needs to have a corresponding end tag, at the same nesting level.

J.W. Harding

nice!!! that works, thank's a lot for the guidance fbennett & adamsmith!

two minor problem remain though:
1. "ibid." appears capitalized --> "Ibid." ... which it sould not.

2. the colon and the space behind the year are gone. it appears like this:
(Bernays, 1952p. 12)
instead of:
(Bernays, 1952: p. 12) like it did before.

would be great if you could point out how i can fix that!
cheers,
JWH

fbennett

Great! I'm glad it clicked.

For the capitalization issue, just delete this from the text tag that renders the ibid term: text-case="capitalize-first"

For the colon-space issue, add this, either to the label element for the locator variable, or to the immediately preceding group tag (it's up to you): prefix=": "

J.W. Harding

awesome! now everything is perfect!
and through the process i got a slight feeling for the syntax as well.

now i can finally start focussing on the text :)
CHEERS!
JWH

fbennett

That's excellent news. As the saying goes, you now "know how to fish" in the CSL sea. Enjoy your work on the manuscript!

J.W. Harding

well put! but i have one last 'fish' here, that you'll net to help me pull in :)

how do i prevent zotero from putting a blank line between each of the sources in the bibliography?

her's the csl again: http://gist.github.com/395128

p.s.: if it is too late in your time zone and you need to goo to sleep please save this for tomorrow... there's no hurry :)

fbennett

Try putting this between the last option element and the following sort element, in the bibliography section:

<option name="entry-spacing" value="0"/>

(I tried to think of a way to relate this to "the one that got away", but couldn't; it must be getting late!)

J.W. Harding

BIGO!!!
you can go to bead now :)