CMS17 with Japanese/Chinese authors: comma or no comma?

Two related questions about commas with Japanese/Chinese author names in CMS17 author-date style:

1. "Language" field
With Language set to "ja-JP":
Fujihara Tatsushi. 2018. Kyūshoku no rekishi. Tokyo: Iwanami Shoten.

Set to "Japanese":
Fujihara, Tatsushi. 2018. Kyūshoku no rekishi. Tokyo: Iwanami Shoten.

The sentence case is preserved, but a comma is inserted between the surname (Fujihara) and personal name (Tatsushi).

Does this mean Zotero doesn't recognize "Japanese," or that there is some difference between Japanese and ja-JP?

2. I know the comma between surname and personal name is not to be used when citing Chinese and Japanese authors writing in their own languages, as above. And while this is a standard feature of journal stylesheets using CMS, I can't find the specific citation in CMS itself.

"8.16: Japanese names" is for use in-text.
"16.81: Indexing Japanese names" is for indexes.
The quick guide includes no relevant examples.

This is important because I'm working with a production team who claims Zotero has got this wrong and won't allow me to remove the comma in authors' names.

What am I missing?
  • Chicago 14.72 specifies that indexing rules also apply to the bibliography, i.e. you're correct, as is Zotero's behavior with ja-JP (only ISO two-letter language codes trigger language specific behavior other than disabling title case) unless you're Westernizing the name in the text & footnotes (i.e. using Tatsuhsi Fujihara there)
  • Thank you @adamsmith!
    14.72 was the missing piece of that puzzle for me.

    (Is there a way to batch find-replace "Japanese" with "ja-JP" in the Language field?)
  • edited January 9, 2023
    @adamsmith, a follow up:

    I tested these styles:
    Taylor & Francis - Chicago Manual of Style (author-date)
    Chicago Manual of Style 17th edition (author-date)
    Chicago Manual of Style 16th edition (author-date)

    All of them correctly omit the comma for author names coded as ja-JP.

    The journal claims to use:

    However, the journal production team at T&F also says that the comma is required by the journal style.

    I think this is probably just a case of misunderstanding (some past articles in the journal use the comma, some don't), but it seemed worth mentioning in case there's something else going on that I don't fully understand.
  • Frank was so convinced of the correctness of this behavior that it's actually hard coded in the processor: nothing we can change at the style level
  • @adamsmith
    Frank may be correct, as evidenced by style guides prepared by and for Asianists:
    HIDA Norio 飛田範夫. Nihon teien no shokusaishi 日本庭園の植栽史. Kyoto: Kyoto University Press 京都大学学術出版会, 2004. Accessed January 28, 2014.
    For Japanese authors writing in Japanese, no comma between surname and given name:
    Works Cited: Kajiwara Ikki and Chiba Tetsuya. 2010. Gekigagurashi (Gekiga Life). Tokyo: Honno zasshisha.
    There is clearly disagreement, though, and it may be that this is a difference between Note and Author-Date.

    Does anyone have a contact at CMS they could ask?
  • I've written to them in the past and gotten a response (even though the Q wasn't published)
  • Submitted. Will update if I hear anything.
  • Does anyone have a better way to contact CMS?
    No response, and the question has not been published.
  • Bueller... Bueller... Anyone?
  • edited September 22, 2023
    Finally received word back from CMoS:
    Strictly speaking, that is correct. And note that the Indexing chapter in CMOS covers names from several different traditions besides Japanese that do not normally use a First Name Surname convention, including Chinese (CMOS 16.77), Hungarian (16.78), and Korean (16.82).
    But it can sometimes be a challenge to determine how the name of a particular author is supposed to be styled. And as you suggest, some publishers impose First Name Surname order even for authors who clearly put the surname first (sometimes simply by adding a comma after the surname in a bibliography entry, even when the author’s name appears in the text or with the cited source as Surname First Name). And some authors who put their surname first in the context of Japanese or Chinese or the like use so-called Western order when writing in English, further complicating matters.

    We’ll try to include additional information in a future edition of CMOS. But as long as personal preferences and publisher’s practices vary, there will continue to be some inconsistencies (though centralized databases for author’s names like ORCID iD may eventually help to sort things out).

    In the meantime, and again, you are right that our advice in the indexing chapter is intended to apply equally to bibliographies.
    So, Zotero (as usual) has this right. \(^.^)/
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