May you let Zoteron give every reference a number and let it be the default citation key.

sfdsfsdf

Hello,
I once used Endnote, and I remembered it has very good behaviour. Every reference imported to the library will have a unique number which can't be changed. Endnote makes this number the citation key for Latex, which can not be changed and is also called Record Number. Making every reference a unique record is good, and making it be used for other functions, such as for citation key, is better behaviour. You can let Better Bibtex generate a new citation key, but it does not affect the generation and utilization of a unique identification number.
Thanks.

emilianoeheyns

You can use item as your key formula in BBT, which will get you the unique key for the item.

That said, this alphanum item key, or the numeric key that Endnote assigns, appear to me a fairly useless citation key. It would have no meaningful connection to the source being cited, so the manuscript would become poorly readable to me:

As \citet{4TM5KV4K} argues, citation keys ought to be readable as part of the source text

sfdsfsdf

Hello,
Thanks for your reply. I am still a little confused, but I know what you said.
1. What is `item` in Zotero？
2. How did you know `item`?
3. Besides Better Bibtex, can I display `item` column in Zotero?
4. Is `item` unique, which can't be changed by any way?
5. Does `item` have meaning? Can the numbers and letters in `item` be converted to special information to check in Zotero?
Thanks.

tim820

This is probably the only feature from Endnote I *really* miss (Endnote as a whole I hate). When writing, I would have Endnote open in one window (often on a second monitor), and Word in another window. When citing, I would just scroll to the reference I wanted in the Endnote library, see its unique number in the column next to it (that Endnote had assigned when the item was first entered), and type it in Word in the required curly brackets by number eg {Smith, 2014 #345}.

It was simple and fast ... and not 'poorly readable', as you can see above. The citations could stay in that unformatted state until the paper was ready for submission; which meant that circulating a paper to other authors was not prone to all the current pitfalls of incompatible word processors/formatted citations (you could even write drafts in a plain text editor if you wanted). When the paper was ready for submission, the appropriate reference style would be chosen, and Endnote would apply it.

Zotero's CWYW options are impressive and powerful. But they are more complex than Endnote's old number-based unformatted citations (although I'm guessing that many Endnote users don't even know that option is available, so just use the word processor-specific facility that is similar to Zotero's).

The Endnote number was also useful when filing/finding hard-copy papers (which was *all* my 1000's of papers until a few years ago). Once a new paper was entered into Endnote, I wrote its Endnote-assigned number on it. I would often write and cite from those hard-copy PDFs, using their written number without having to look the number up in Endnote. Paper copies could be filed in my filing cabinet by number and thus easily found. Nowadays I rarely print out PDFs like that, but I still have some hard-copy resources that could have a number added if it were available in Zotero, to tell me that they are in my library, and how to cite them.

sfdsfsdf

Hello,
Thanks for your shared experience. I am a little confused:
1. In my Endnote, there is only *Record number*, which is unique and is used as *citation key* in Endnote default setting. So what is the *Endnote-assigned number*? Did you refer to the *Record number*?
2. From PDFs, how can you get the *written number*? I check my Endnote, I found very reference belongs to a fold named by numbers, but it is different from the *Record number*.
Thanks.

tim820

I think we're talking about the same thing in Endnote - the assigned record number that you can type directly into an unformatted citation if you want to cite in that very quick way, like #345 in my example above. Maybe I just used that number in extra ways compared to other people ... like also writing that number on the front page of each hard-copy PDF, and using that to file the hard-copy PDF in my filing cabinet. So that number was central to everything I did reference-wise, which is why I miss it.;)

emilianoeheyns

What is item in Zotero?

It means something to BBT; I meant that you can use item where it says auth.lower + shorttitle(3,3) + year by default, and you will get the item key as the citekey.

How did you know item?

https://retorque.re/zotero-better-bibtex/citing/#generating-citekeys

Besides Better Bibtex, can I display item column in Zotero?

Without BBT? I don't know whether that's possible

Is item unique, which can't be changed by any way?

Yes.

Does item have meaning? Can the numbers and letters in item be converted to special information to check in Zotero?

No, and I'm surprised you ask, as the ID in Endnote also will not have any meaning. You can however search in Zotero on this key, and you will find the corresponding item.

sfdsfsdf

Thanks for the kindle explanation. In this aspect, Zotero is not worse. As Zotero has a unique `item` code, which I haven't confirmed but it may be. And every PDF is located in the folder named by the `item` number. Coping the folders and the .bib file in which the citation key is assigned by `item` number will make all the documents clear.

sfdsfsdf

@emilianoeheyns
Thanks for your detailed explanations. I have another question: How did you format your answer? Why I can't format my text? Did I miss important instructions again?

emilianoeheyns

This is probably the only feature from Endnote I really miss (Endnote as a whole I hate). When writing, I would have Endnote open in one window (often on a second monitor), and Word in another window. When citing, I would just scroll to the reference I wanted in the Endnote library, see its unique number in the column next to it (that Endnote had assigned when the item was first entered), and type it in Word in the required curly brackets by number eg {Smith, 2014 #345}.

@sfdsfsdf was talking about citation keys in LaTeX. What you're describing here looks to me like Zotero's RTF scan or the more capable RTF/ODF scan.

It was simple and fast ... and not 'poorly readable', as you can see above.

Which is because you are describing a different use-case, which Zotero also seems to cover.

The citations could stay in that unformatted state until the paper was ready for submission; which meant that circulating a paper to other authors was not prone to all the current pitfalls of incompatible word processors/formatted citations (you could even write drafts in a plain text editor if you wanted). When the paper was ready for submission, the appropriate reference style would be chosen, and Endnote would apply it.

Which sounds to me like Zotero's RTF/ODF scan.

The Endnote number was also useful when filing/finding hard-copy papers (which was all my 1000's of papers until a few years ago). Once a new paper was entered into Endnote, I wrote its Endnote-assigned number on it. I would often write and cite from those hard-copy PDFs, using their written number without having to look the number up in Endnote. Paper copies could be filed in my filing cabinet by number and thus easily found. Nowadays I rarely print out PDFs like that, but I still have some hard-copy resources that could have a number added if it were available in Zotero, to tell me that they are in my library, and how to cite them.

You could use the item key here as I described above. This will to my knowledge require BBT to be installed.

sfdsfsdf

Let's discuss the problem further.
1. If Zotero can't display the *item* in one column, it should be displayed by BBT. So, why Zotero make a function of showing the *item* column by itself?
2. If Zotero could display one column of *item*, it should make the citation key to *item* when users export bibtex format from Zotero. Or, the citation keys may be changed.
3. As many users feel that BBT can do this for Zotero, BBT can only if it uses *item* as citation key, or BBT can't. If users have two computers, the users need to use citation key, so the users installed BBT on two computers. On these two computer, the BBT setting may be different, how can BBT will keep citation key stable (not changed).
So citation key should be maintained by Zotero itself, not by add-ons.
Thanks.

emilianoeheyns

Besides Better Bibtex, can I display item column in Zotero?

With BBT it is possible however, as you can have the citation key shown in a column.

sfdsfsdf

Thanks for your kind reminder. I use BBT to show *item* column.

emilianoeheyns

Just a note, it isn't the "item" as a whole, but the item key. In BBT, item is just shorthand for item(key). I have changed the text below accordingly.

If Zotero can't display the item key in one column, it should be displayed by BBT. So, why Zotero make a function of showing the item key column by itself?

I don't see why it should be BBTs business to show the item key in particular in the items pane. BBT shows the citation key; if that happens to be the item key, that will be shown.

If Zotero could display one column of item key, it should make the citation key to item key when users export bibtex format from Zotero.

Hard disagree. You happen to find the meaningless but fixed key useful as a citation key; I guarantee you the majority of BBT users do not.

Or, the citation keys may be changed.

Which you can prevent: https://retorque.re/zotero-better-bibtex/citing/#set-your-own-fixed-citation-keys. You can automate this in BBT using https://retorque.re/zotero-better-bibtex/installation/preferences/#automatically-pin-citation-key-after

This behavior will likely become the default when Zotero adds its own citation key field.

As many users feel that BBT can do this for Zotero, BBT can only if it uses item key as citation key, or BBT can't

which is untrue, see above.

If users have two computers, the users need to use citation key, so the users installed BBT on two computers. On these two computer, the BBT setting may be different, how can BBT will keep citation key stable (not changed).

By pinning the key.

So citation key should be maintained by Zotero itself, not by add-ons.

Zotero is going to add a field, which will sync to other computers, but the timeline is unknown. In any case, you can have this behavior today with BBT.

emilianoeheyns

How did you format your answer? Why I can't format my text? Did I miss important instructions again?

You can use HTML in your anwer. I used <blockquote> to mark the text I am responding to, and <code> to highlight verbatim text or technical details.

In practice I type these into https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/markdown-editor-for-chrom/dkpldbigkfcgpamifjimiejipmodkigk?hl=en (albeit for Firefox) and then have that convert the text into text+HTML.

tim820

Apologies for extrapolating to other use cases ! I got suddenly enthused when reminded of the utility of the unique (exposed) number assigned by Endnote to each item (and it's very hard for me to get enthused about anything to do with Endnote, which saddled our research group with numerous nightmares over many years). The way Endnote uses that number is analogous to a fixed citation key/number (as for example in Endnote's unformatted, unambiguous, curly-bracket citations). So that "baked in" record number exposed in Endnote still seems to me to confer functionality for a number of use-cases in simpler, less ambiguous ways than can be achieved with Zotero/add-ons. But I realize that Zotero is probably not going to assign/expose a simple number like that at this stage.

emilianoeheyns

In a technical sense Zotero already does assign both a stable key and a stable number to items; the item key is exposed by BBT, but it is generated by Zotero, and the RTF/ODF scan plugin uses that key. You don't need BBT for this workflow, as you can drag-drop the RTF/ODF marker, key included, into your document. It's just that without BBT, you cannot currently see the key in Zotero without that drag and drop.

You can get the numeric item ID from BBT using item(id), but I would advice against using it. The item ID is unique to any one installation of Zotero, but synced items between two PCs usually do not share item IDs. The keys are globally unique, so will be shared between synced PCs.

So that "baked in" record number exposed in Endnote still seems to me to confer functionality for a number of use-cases in simpler, less ambiguous ways than can be achieved with Zotero/add-ons. But I realize that Zotero is probably not going to assign/expose a simple number like that at this stage.

I do think the RDF/ODF plugin offers an exact (and possibly richer) match for this functionality though.

sfdsfsdf

@emilianoeheyns

I have tested my two computers, one Windows 11 and the other Linux Debian 11.

Which you can prevent: https://retorque.re/zotero-better-bibtex/citing/#set-your-own-fixed-citation-keys. You can automate this in BBT using https://retorque.re/zotero-better-bibtex/installation/preferences/#automatically-pin-citation-key-after.

After I had pinned the citation key by Better Bibtex on Windows 11, I opened the library on my Linux and found that the pinned keys were unpinned and they would change when I refreshed the citation keys. So Better Bibtex can't deal with two or more computers in the same library.

Thanks

emilianoeheyns

That means you haven't synced.

sfdsfsdf

@emilianoeheyns

That means you haven't synced.

I have seen them synced.

sfdsfsdf

@tim820

In my opinion, your answer is very good. When we discuss a problem, it is difficult to limit it to one point, because everyone has different boundaries.

emilianoeheyns

Does the pinned key appear in the extra field in one or both of the PCs?

Pinned keys are just a line of text in the extra field. The extra field syncs. If the extra field does not sync, that would be a zotero bug.

It is possible that you got a sync conflict and that you chose to retain the unpinned copy. That would indeed actively unpin the item.

sfdsfsdf

@emilianoeheyns

Does the pinned key appear in the extra field in one or both of the PCs?

Yes, a red pin mark was shown in my Windows 11 as:

Pinned keys are just a line of text in the extra field. The extra field syncs. If the extra field does not sync, that would be a zotero bug.

Maybe a bug.
I hope Zotero will add the citation keys function as quickly as possible. This is a very important feature and will be stable only in the Zotero itself not by the add-ons.

emilianoeheyns

The pin appears if the line in extra exists. So the windows side still has the pin and the line in extra, the linux side has neither, you have just synced both PCs, and nowhere in this process did you get a conflict resolution popup? I'd report that in a separate thread to Zotero. The extra field should sync just like any other field in Zotero.

sfdsfsdf

@emilianoeheyns
It is the problem of sync. Pin citation key can solve this problem. Thanks.

emilianoeheyns

[deleted]

sfdsfsdf

@emilianoeheyns
Thanks a lot. This is a very useful design。

adamsmith

When citing, I would just scroll to the reference I wanted in the Endnote library, see its unique number in the column next to it (that Endnote had assigned when the item was first entered), and type it in Word in the required curly brackets by number eg {Smith, 2014 #345}.

FWIW, I've always imagined that Zotero would -- either natively or via add-on -- improve RTF Scan to approximate what Endnote does once citekeys are fully implemented. The exact implementation would require some thought, but I'd be inclined to go with pandoc citation syntax, i.e. [@Smith2014] to avoid re-inventing the wheel.

The Endnote version of this I think is problematic because the IDs aren't even remotely unique, so it operates very much within a >2000s approach to authoring: a single author on a single device. (Endnote does claim a patent on the exact thing they're doing, btw: https://patents.google.com/patent/US8082241, though the limits of that patent are a bit unclear since automated citing by IDs has been around since BibTeX in the mid 1980s)

Currently Zotero's options are 1) not reliably unique author-date combinations (RTF Scan) 2) Reliable but clumsy item IDs (ODF Scan) or 3) non-native cite keys (BBT-related options), which already work very well in plaint-text-based writing ([R-]Markdown/Quarto, LaTeX, etc.).
With citekeys, i.e. human-readable, locally unique IDs available natively, it should be possible to combine features from all three for a nice writing workflow.

sfdsfsdf

@adamsmith
Hello,
What are the full names of RDF and ODF?

emilianoeheyns

Rich Text Format and OpenDocument format (RDF is a different, not-related thing).

sfdsfsdf

@emilianoeheyns
Thanks. But why not reliably unique author-date combinations is RTF Scan, whereas Reliable but clumsy item IDs is ODF scan?