Wrong citation in Harvard style

Morris
Errors of the style Harvard reference format 1 (Author-date) in german language using Zotero 1.0.3. + OOo plugin (could also be produced with earlier versions and when copying bibliographical items to clipboard):

  • (1) wrong: Habermas, J., 2001. Der philosophische Diskurs der Moderne. Zwölf Vorlesungen 9undefined Aufl., Frankfurt/Main: Suhrkamp.

  • should be: Habermas, J., 2001. Der philosophische Diskurs der Moderne. Zwölf Vorlesungen. 9. Aufl., Frankfurt/Main: Suhrkamp.

  • (2) wrong short citation: (Freud 1930, p.111)

  • should be: (Freud 1930, S. 111) [including the space]

  • (3) wrong: Habermas, J., 1994. Diskursethik - Notizen zu einem Begründungsprogramm. In Moralbewußtsein und kommunikatives Handeln. Frankfurt/Main: Suhrkamp, p. 53-125.

  • should be: Habermas, J., 1994. Diskursethik - Notizen zu einem Begründungsprogramm. In: Moralbewußtsein und kommunikatives Handeln. Frankfurt/Main: Suhrkamp, S. 53-125.

  • (4) wrong: Höffe, O. hrsg., 1995. Aristoteles: Die Nikomachische Ethik, Berlin.

  • should be: Höffe, O. (Hg.), 1995. Aristoteles: Die Nikomachische Ethik, Berlin.
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  • Codec
    OK - the page references should be fixed, the edition ordinal suffix needs a translation adding to the main list.
  • Morris
    edited February 12, 2008
    Thanks! How is this adding done? Is it something I should do (if yes: where?)?
    I added an error (4).
  • Codec
    No - its a basic translation that is missing. The equivalent English text is
    st, nd, rd, th
    which is used in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th
    What is the German equivalent?
  • Morris
    edited February 12, 2008
    In German there are no suffix letters used, it's just: 1., 2., 3., 4. and so on.

    2nd ed. = 2. Aufl.
    6th ed. = 6. Aufl.
  • Codec
    I've submitted the changes, I don't think these get updated without a new release though.
  • Morris
    Thanks a lot! I'll be glad if this works in the future, so that I can just go on using zotero and sometimes the entries will be correctly displayed.

    I hope you have noticed my addition (see first post, 4).

    Best regards.
  • dstillman
    edited February 13, 2008
    Helga: I've made a note to check your examples for 1.0.4 (and to apply Codec's change to the files from BabelZilla before release).

    It looks like "Hrsg." is still specified as the short form for the "editor" term. Are you saying that that should always be "(Hg.)" in German bibliographies, or only in Harvard?

    Other possible problems I see (with the caveat that I don't really know much about CSL or German):

    1) The German locales.xml file on BZ has "S." for the short form of "page", whereas the English locale has just "p" (no period). In another thread you mentioned double periods, so it seems this would be the cause.

    2) In the current Harvard 1 style, the "p." is hard-coded, which is why you don't see the double period problem (but do see "p."). [Edit: My mistake: Codec already fixed this in the dev style.]

    3) I don't believe it's possible to have "p.111" in English and "S. 111" (with a space) in German. This isn't really a localization issue—essentially, putting a space after the page abbreviation makes it a variation of the style.

    4) The current Harvard style lowercases the editor, which would make "(Hg.)" difficult.
  • Morris
    edited February 13, 2008
    Thanks a lot, Dan Stillman:

    ad 1) I'm sorry I don't know much about xml, if there is already a period in the xml-file I guess the entry should be only "S". But the outcame has got to be "S. 44", the period is needed there.

    ad 3) So German users would have to live with that? That's a pity, because "S.44" is just wrong with German grammar. Then it would be better if there was only "44" without "S.", but I guess this would make totally different style again.

    So maybe a special German Harvard style has to be programmed. I don't know if I can manage it to learn about that in a short time.

    ad 4) Concerning the editor: Some use "Hg." for one editor and "Hrsg." for more than one editors. Some use only "Hg." and some say that "Hrsg." is the most common way to use in every case. I could live with "Hrsg." in any case, but it would really have to be "Name, N. (Hrsg.),". To lowercase the editor, again, is absolutely wrong in German grammar.

    I don't know, looks a bit tricky now?
  • Morris
    edited February 13, 2008
    Another possibility for German writers would be to change to style DIN 1505-2, which is, as far as I know, a German norm. But it's a bit sad if you only have ONE possibility to format your citations (plus: this style is seldomly used).

    But also DIN 1505-2 has (min.) one error: It produces

    (Habermas, 2001, S.. 55)

    as a short citation, so we have the double period again, instead of

    (Habermas, 2001, S. 55)
  • Morris
    There is at least one way for the present to make Zotero with Harvard style working in German texts (within OOo). When inserting a citation using the toolbar the editor can be used to set "S. " instead of "p." (this works also for the whole bibliography).

    pro: this edition is obtained after refreshment.
    con: it has to be done for every single item.
  • bdarcus
    edited February 13, 2008
    So maybe a special German Harvard style has to be programmed. I don't know if I can manage it to learn about that in a short time.
    All you would do is take the style that is closest to what you need, and create a new one (with different title, ID, etc.).

    You then just need to do a few trivial modifications to get what you want. For example, the Harvard 1 "pages" macro seems to do what you want:

    <macro name="pages">
    <group>
    <label variable="page"
    form="short"
    include-period="true"
    suffix=" "/>
    <text variable="page"/>
    </group>
    </macro>


    Note the "suffix" attribute on the label element has a space. This is what sets the spacing between the label and the number. So to have no space between them, remove that attribute.

    You can test the rendering by using csledit.xul.

    If it works as you like, send it to me and I'll load it in the repository for use.
  • Morris
    edited February 13, 2008
    Sorry, this is beyond my abilities. With learning to program I just mean: I need a tutorial for beginners how to do so. The short FAQ in the Developers section is not enough for me.
    Sad but true. I can program a bit of HTML, and if someone got any link for me - much appreciated, I'd try it. But I don't have the time to go on google-searching about what the whole thing of cls-programming is.
  • bdarcus
    OK, tell me exactly what you need, in the most concise possible language:

    1. title of the new style
    2. the style on which it should be based
    3. how it differs from 2

    If I understand you right, 3 should have very trivial differences; perhaps only in the page number label.
  • Morris
    edited February 14, 2008
    I do need the Harvard reference format 1 (author-date) style in German translation. If a translation of the current Harvard style is not possible:

    1. new style: Harvard reference format 1 (author-date) (de)
    2. based on: Harvard reference format 1 (author-date)
    3. differs in four aspects (one in the short citations, three in the bibliographical entries at the end of the text)

    Short citation entries
    a. current Harvard style produces short citation: "(Freud 1930, p.111)" - it should be: "(Freud 1930, S. 111)"
    - page should be displayed as "S." instead of "p.",
    - there should be a space between "S." and the displayed number.
    - ([author] [year], S. [number])

    Bibliographical entries
    b. (second or later edition of a book) current Harvard style produces wrong edition number; a 2nd edition is shown as: "2undefined Aufl.," it should be "2. Aufl.,"
    - after the title of the book should be a period, followed by the number of the edition and a period, followed by the edition displayed as "Aufl."
    - there is no "1st", "2nd", "3rd" in German but only "1.", "2.", "3."
    - [author], [first letter of first name]., [year]. [title (italic)]. [number of edition]. Aufl., [place]: [publisher].


    c. (in book article) current Harvard style produces wrong pages: "p. 53-125" it should be: "S. 53-125"
    - page should be displayed as "S." followed by a space (as it already is) and the number.
    - the pages should be displayed the same way in articles (in journals)
    - [author], [first letter of first name]., [year]. [title]. In [book (italic)]. [place]: [publisher], S. [number begin]-[number end].
    -

    d. (anthology) current Harvard style produces the editor like this: "Höffe, O. hrsg.," it should be: "Höffe, O. (Hrsg.),"
    - the editor(s) of the anthology should be followed by the a note in paranthesis "(Hrsg.)"
    - [author], [first letter of first name]. (Hrsg.), [year]. [title (italic)]. [place]: [publisher].

    Thanks so much for your help! I used the examples of my first post (see above); if anything is unclear, kindly let me know.
  • bdarcus
    OK, I've added the new style to the repo, but it's not done. I've only had time to address a. I'm looking into some schema changes to better address this issue and number c, and I'll get to this later.

    Question: are examples like b saying that while in the generic Harvard the "edition" term *should* be fully printed, only in German it's abbreviated?
  • Morris
    The "edition" term in German is always abbreviated as "Aufl." in bibliographies.
  • bdarcus
    That's not a style problem, though; it's a bug.

    From what I can tell, the only difference is 1) page label is capitalized, and has a space after it, and b) edition label is capitalized.

    Otherwise they seems exactly the same. Perhaps we ought to call this "Harvard5"?
  • Morris
    edited February 15, 2008
    I agree, if on any place the pages are displayed as "S. xx" and the editor is followed by a highlighted "(Hrsg.)", it's done. Plus: the suffix of the number of the edition has to be turned into a single period ("x. Aufl.")
    "Harvard5", yes! Very much appreciated ;)

    Is it too much to ask for "Harvard5" to produce a chronological order of bibliographical entries? In Harvard 1 it's alphabetical (by title), which is not very useful when showing Author-Date first.
    (If this takes too much time it can be done later on; or - ad hoc - the user can do it himself in just correcting the order in the document before printing.)

    ..........
    P.S.
    I tested out the other available Harvard styles. "Harvard 2" comes very close. Short citations are okay ("S." and space between number), but edition number is still "undefined" and the editor is not capitalized. But: this style sets the issue numbers of journals or the numbers of encyclopaedia volumes bold, which looks disturbing (altough it may be useful for its creators).

    ..........
    PP.S.
    For anyones interest: The useable alternative (German) which comes close to Harvard is DIN 1505-2 style, altough here in short citations it produces "S.. 11" instead of "S. 11".
  • dstillman
    Helga: There's no need to keep mentioning the "undefined" problem. As he said above, Codec fixed it in the locale file, but you won't be able to (easily) test it until 1.0.4 comes out.
    From what I can tell, the only difference is 1) page label is capitalized, and has a space after it, and b) edition label is capitalized.
    Bruce: Yes. The only other difference might be the parentheses. Helga, are the parentheses around "Hrsg." unique to your version of Harvard, or would there be parentheses around it in any style? (I'm guessing the former, in which case that's another variation.)
  • Morris
    edited February 14, 2008
    The parantheses around Hrsg. are common in any style I know in German texts.
    The only difference is if a text of one author is edited by another, let' say:

    Aristoteles, Metaphysik, hrsg. von xxx...

    In this case "hrsg." is a verb and gives the additional information that the publication is "edited by..." similar to "übers. von" (translated by). In any other case, mainly anthologies, every style will use the noun in parantheses "(Hrsg.)" after the author.

    author 1, author 2 (Hrsg.)...

    There is only a difference that sometimes "Hg." is used instead of "Hrsg." but this can be ignored. Older texts sometimes tend to use "Hg." for one editor and "Hrsg." for more than one. This is more and more outdated.
  • Morris
    edited February 15, 2008
    Sorry, I just got it now that Dan's question was concerning the other available Harvard styles. The paranthesis should be used in any version of Harvard, just because it's common to use it in German citations no matter what style.
    It's correctly used in any available Harvard style but H1 (but not capitalized).
    I'll show you the German output with zotero/OOo:

    (titles are italic in original)

    Harvard1:
    (Höffe 1995, p.123)
    Höffe, O. hrsg., 1995. Aristoteles: Die Nikomachische Ethik, Berlin.
    ⁠
    Harvard2:
    (Höffe 1995, S. 123)
    Höffe, O. (hrsg.). 1995. Aristoteles: Die Nikomachische Ethik. Berlin.

    Harvard3:
    (Höffe 1995, p.123)
    Höffe, O (hrsg.) 1995, Aristoteles: Die Nikomachische Ethik, Berlin.
    ⁠
    ⁠Harvard open university:
    (Höffe, 1995, p.123)
    Höffe, Otfried (hrsg.) (1995) Aristoteles: Die Nikomachische Ethik, Berlin.

    This makes Harvard2 nearly the perfect style when correcting to the capitalized editor, if not H2 would set the journal numbers and encycl. volumes bold.
    ⁠
  • dstillman
    Sorry, I just got it now that Dan's question was concerning the other available Harvard styles.
    No, I meant in general, since that determines whether the parentheses should be part of the translated string in the German locale file or need to be specified separately in specific style files.

    It sounds like you're saying the parentheses should just be in the German locale file.

    (The verb forms are handled separately. In the current German locale, the short verb form for editors is "hg. v.".)
  • Morris
    edited February 15, 2008
    Okay, so the post before my last post pointed at the right answer... yes, it should be in the German locale file as every style uses it this way.

    The most common verb form is - imo - "hrsg. von" (or "hg. von") but personally I don't care and would also use "hg. v.". So I wouldn't opt for changing this.
  • haraldkliems
    Hi everyone,
    as the person doing most of the localization stuff for de-de most of the problems are my fault. Unfortunately I do not use any of the bibliography output features and I'm also more an APA than a Harvard guy. Anyway, let's see what I can contribute.

    *about the abbreviation dots: that's clearly my bad. If I understand it correctly, all the terms that have a form="short" in the locales.xml will have a dot added in the output and therefore should not contain a dot in the locales.xml file. Thus, if we want "S." as the output (more on the blank later) it has to "S" in the file; if we want "hg. v." it should be "hg. v". Right?

    * about the blank after the pages-abbreviation: from my knowledge of the English Harvard Style, one would insert a blank after the p. too. So maybe this does not call for a special German version of the style but for a fix in general?

    * Hg vs Hrsg: I put in "Hrsg." as both plural and singular form because of my knowledge of the German APA rules where this is correct. Helga, would you still want to have the distinction?

    * about the (ed.)/(Hrsg.): I am somewhat confused here. If I understand it correctly, Harvard 1 doesn't use parentheses around "ed" for edited volumes? Can anyone confirm that this is proper usage in English? About the capitalization: this is not a problem with the locales.xml. In there, "Hrsg" as a noun form is capitalized.

    * about the DIN-Style: Helga, if you could send me the complete rules of this style I could try to create an according style (no guarantees, though).

    HTH,
    Hobbes vs Boyle
  • dstillman
    If I understand it correctly, all the terms that have a form="short" in the locales.xml will have a dot added in the output and therefore should not contain a dot in the locales.xml file. Thus, if we want "S." as the output (more on the blank later) it has to "S" in the file; if we want "hg. v." it should be "hg. v". Right?
    Yup. (Or, at least, none of the English equivalents have periods in the English locale file, so if they're added at all, they're added in the styles.)
    about the blank after the pages-abbreviation: from my knowledge of the English Harvard Style, one would insert a blank after the p. too. So maybe this does not call for a special German version of the style but for a fix in general?
    The lack of a space is correct in Harvard 1, which is based on Anglia Ruskin University's Harvard guidelines, but you're right that most Harvard styles specify a space. (The Anglia guidelines also use a single "p.",* which doesn't affect German since the German locale uses "S." for both singular and plural, but together with the space issue does call into question whether it should actually be the Harvard style bundled with Zotero.)

    * Codec removed the hard-coded English "p." from Harvard 1 in favor of locale-based substitution, so at the moment the dev style will use "pp." in English for multiple pages, but once a new "plural" CSL attribute is added to Zotero and the style is updated, it'll go back to displaying "p." for multiple pages. Again, this doesn't affect the rendering in German because both abbreviations are just "S.".
  • Morris
    edited February 20, 2008
    @HobbesvsBoyle: I do not want the distinction between Hg./Hrsg.
    The DIN1505-2 is described here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_1505-2 - as far as I can see this style has only the problem of producing "S..".

    (Using APA you surely will know that it produces "S.." in the short citations, too.)
  • haraldkliems
    @Dan: Thanks for the clarifications.

    @ Helga: Thanks for the link. The double period issue is fixed but will only become visible in the next release.
  • petzi
    edited August 15, 2008
    I noticed another problem with Harvard concerning the use of internet addresses:

    An example of the wrong output:

    Baumgartner, P., 2007. Karriereplaner E-Portfolio - Katalysator für eine neue Lernkultur. upgrade - Das Magazin für Wissen und Weiterbildung der Donau-Universität Krems, (1), 20-23. Available at: http://www.donau-uni.ac.at/imperia/md/content/upgrade/upgrade_1.07_baumgartner.pdf [Zugegriffen August 14, 2008].

    There are two problems:

    1) It says "Available at" instead of "Abgerufen von". I've checked the de-DE version in Babelzilla. The translation is there, ("retrieved" = "abgerufen" and "from" = "von"), so maye it is a bug?

    2) The second problem is "[Zugegriffen August 14, 2008]".

    a) The date is not in the German format. That would be "[day]. [month] [year]". With the above example: "14. August 2008"

    b) Another issue is the missing colon "Zugegriffen:". It would be even better to have "Zugegriffen am".

    So the complete reference should be output:

    Baumgartner, P., 2007. Karriereplaner E-Portfolio - Katalysator für eine neue Lernkultur. upgrade - Das Magazin für Wissen und Weiterbildung der Donau-Universität Krems, (1), 20-23. Abgerufen von: http://www.donau-uni.ac.at/imperia/md/content/upgrade/upgrade_1.07_baumgartner.pdf [Zugegriffen am 14. August 2008].

    ****

    A general comment: I think it would comply with all requirements as far as I know to simplify the reference to:

    Baumgartner, P., 2007. Karriereplaner E-Portfolio - Katalysator für eine neue Lernkultur. upgrade - Das Magazin für Wissen und Weiterbildung der Donau-Universität Krems, (1), 20-23. Http://www.donau-uni.ac.at/imperia/md/content/upgrade/upgrade_1.07_baumgartner.pdf [14. August 2008].

    No "abgerufen von" and "zugegriffen am" anymore. In the first days as citations from Internet resources were new it was necessary to provide all these details. But nowadays everybody knows what a URL and a date in the context of citation means. So why not to get rid of all these unnecessary stuff?
  • selbic
    newbi question:
    why are people not allowed to edit these little local words themselves*? I started to use zotero 3 hours ago, and I like it very much. but as a german student, after 3 hours I see some fundamental obstacles to actually use it in class or elsewhere, since the mistakes like a lowercase "hrsg." or the missing translation of "available at:" really turn me off... in the end, these words are by no means "standard", so I really see the need to be able to edit them like the rest of the style...
    (* or can they?)
  • bdarcus
    @selbic: think of it this way, if there wasn't these mistakes, wouldn't you value the fact that you don't have to worry about doing the translations yourself, and that even though the styles you need were authored first in French or English, they still work?

    That's the whole idea behind the localization strategy in CSL. The trick is just that we need an easy way for you and others to quickly get these issues fixed. I don't know where this stands now; perhaps Dan might have something to offer.
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