To add support for name-part affixes to CSL, I need to know how affixes behave for names with a suffix name-part. Based on the display name orders at http://citationstyles.org/downloads/specification.html#name-part-order, does everybody agree that the affixes (double angle brackets) should behave as indicated below?
The main question is when the "suffix" name-part should be enclosed by the "given" and "family" name-part affixes. I think it should be enclosed by the affixes on the "family" name-part affixes when the "suffix" name-part follows the "family" name-part (first example), but shouldn't be enclosed by the affixes set for the "given" name-part for inverted names (second and third examples).
Using just parentheses, these examples would look like:
(Gérard) (de la Martinière III) (la Martinière), (Gérard de), III (Martinière), (Gérard de la), III
In the Zotero panel, there are just 2 fields: family-name and given name, there are no special fields to enter dropping-article, non-dropping article and suffix.
Without knowing what part of the data entered is considered as family name, given name, dropping-article, non-dropping article ans suffix, it seems difficult to me to understand what these explanations mean.
For example, from what I read, I don't see how I would have known that to obtain:
La Bruyère, Jean de
I have to enter "La Bruyère" (with quotes) in the family name, and "Jean de" (without quotes" in the given name
For the moment, I just can say that F. Bennett's modifications suit my needs
@l2laffitte: la question porte sur les suffixes, c'est à dire "III" dans l'exemple ci-dessus. Quand est-ce qu'un tel suffixe doit-il être inclus dans la parenthèse du nom ou du prénom.
D'après Rintze, le suffixe (III) doit être inclus dans les parenthèses du nom de famille quand le suffixe (III) suit le nom de famille (premier exemple); Mais il ne doit pas être inclus dans les parenthèses du prénom quand le format est inversé (Nom, Prénom: deuxième et troisième exemple)
@Rintze: Thanks for the explanation. I had not understood in your first message that you were focusing on suffixes. However I don't have any opinion on this question: suffixes like this one are very rare for me. I'll try to think about that.
I'm not an expert on French names, but I'd classify both "abbé" and "d'" as dropping particles. Examples of suffix name-parts are "III" in "William H. Gates III" and "Jr." in "Frank G. Bennett, Jr.".
@l2lafitte: You are right that a short document explaining the way to input names is needed. It may take some time, but we'll get one together on zotero.org.
The treatment of "abbé d" is special, crafted in response to your own feedback. The way it is handled (with a comma always) is outside of -- or to put it more strongly, it violates -- the strict terms of the CSL specification. That means that (as I wrote before) I can't absolutely guarantee that it will always be handled this way. However, it also means that we have some freedom. I've tested "abbé d" as an ordinary dropping-particle, apart from the persistent comma. The comma is "shy" however, if there is an explicit suffix that would clash with it:
Again, I don't understand how you distinguish what is a dropping particle and what is a suffix.
I agree that the "d'Aubignac" case might seem a little odd. In fact, it is more complex than I previously explained.
"abbé d'XXX"or "abbé de XXX" is a title, as would be "duke of York"
1/ This man's family name is "Hédelin",
2/ his given name is "François",
3/ "abbé" is a title
4/ "Aubignac" is the name of the abbey he was at the head of, that's why there is a
5/ particle "d'".
By chance, his family name is not "de Hédelin"
For his writings, in an alphabetical list of bibliography, he must appear at AUBIGNAC, not at HÉDELIN,because he is known as AUBIGNAC.
In citation, since we just cite him, its title can appear after the given name, family name, but separated from them with a comma.
As you can see, to obtain it I had to "cheat" too.
I entered Hédelin as a second given name, so it cannot be put in small-caps or ...
Maybe somebody could propose a better solution for this kind of names ?
I think we're about right with this name. The dropping-particle treatment of the "abbé d" element is about right; the logic seems quite similiar to the "de" in "Gérard de la Martinière III" -- it expresses affiliation or membership.
The fact that the family name in this case, properly speaking, is Hédelin will be an issue if that must be reflected in typography. With a two-field entry system, I think we're just stuck at that point; some touch-up of the final manuscript may be required. It's a case we should keep in mind, though, in case opportunities arise for treating it with greater precision.
That name would probably break badly, but there is at least a name with a particle embedded in the given name portion in the CSL test fixtures:
John Bertrand de Cusance Morant
(Former President of the US San Francisco Medical School, I believe; Professor Morant's name was raised as an issue on a LaTeX bibliography forum, which is how it made its way into our test data. citeproc-js will initialize his name correctly without special hints or adjustments.) We do the best we can, sometimes it's a stretch too far.
Zotero is a marvellous tool, we want to use. For that, we want it can suit our own specific needs, as language (french) and field (humanities) are concerned.
Unfortunately for us, American names, even those with european origin, don't behave the same way french names do. I don't think, american names ever refer to a "fief" as a patronymic.
France's history covers large periods where quite a few noble men and women were authors, and we have to do with that heritage!
So please maintain the actual way of handling these names, we really need it.
Upgrade Storage
Thanks
<< [Gérard] >> << [de] [la] [Martinière] [III] >>
<< [la] [Martinière] >>, << [Gérard] [de] >>, [III]
<< [Martinière] >> , << [Gérard] [de] [la] >>, [III]
<< [la] [Martinière] >>
<< 毛 >> << 泽东 >>
<< 毛 >>
l2lafitte? Gracile?
Using just parentheses, these examples would look like:
(Gérard) (de la Martinière III)
(la Martinière), (Gérard de), III
(Martinière), (Gérard de la), III
I must confess I don't understand the way things are explained.
It might be because of my poor english or because I don't see clearly the link between what is written in
http://citationstyles.org/downloads/specification.html#name-part-order
and what is entered in the Zotero panel.
In the Zotero panel, there are just 2 fields: family-name and given name, there are no special fields to enter dropping-article, non-dropping article and suffix.
Without knowing what part of the data entered is considered as family name, given name, dropping-article, non-dropping article ans suffix, it seems difficult to me to understand what these explanations mean.
For example, from what I read, I don't see how I would have known that to obtain:
La Bruyère, Jean de
I have to enter "La Bruyère" (with quotes) in the family name, and "Jean de" (without quotes" in the given name
For the moment, I just can say that F. Bennett's modifications suit my needs
Sorry for that poor contribution !
D'après Rintze, le suffixe (III) doit être inclus dans les parenthèses du nom de famille quand le suffixe (III) suit le nom de famille (premier exemple); Mais il ne doit pas être inclus dans les parenthèses du prénom quand le format est inversé (Nom, Prénom: deuxième et troisième exemple)
@Rintze: Thanks for the explanation. I had not understood in your first message that you were focusing on suffixes. However I don't have any opinion on this question: suffixes like this one are very rare for me. I'll try to think about that.
Thanks for your help
+ @Rintze, @fbennett
when I enter :
family-name : Aubignac
given name : François Hédelin, abbé d'
in bibliography (name-as-sort -order="all"), it is displayed:
AUBIGNAC, François Hédelin, abbé d’
in notes (without name-as-sort-order), it is displayed:
François Hédelin, abbé d’Aubignac
Is "abbé" considered as a suffix? "d' " as a dropping-particle?
If so, it doesn't seem to match any of the three
(Gérard) (de la Martinière III)
(la Martinière), (Gérard de), III
(Martinière), (Gérard de la), III
The treatment of "abbé d" is special, crafted in response to your own feedback. The way it is handled (with a comma always) is outside of -- or to put it more strongly, it violates -- the strict terms of the CSL specification. That means that (as I wrote before) I can't absolutely guarantee that it will always be handled this way. However, it also means that we have some freedom. I've tested "abbé d" as an ordinary dropping-particle, apart from the persistent comma. The comma is "shy" however, if there is an explicit suffix that would clash with it:
(François Hédelin) (abbé d’Aubignac)
(Aubignac), (François Hédelin, abbé d’)
Does that look alright?
Again, I don't understand how you distinguish what is a dropping particle and what is a suffix.
I agree that the "d'Aubignac" case might seem a little odd. In fact, it is more complex than I previously explained.
"abbé d'XXX"or "abbé de XXX" is a title, as would be "duke of York"
1/ This man's family name is "Hédelin",
2/ his given name is "François",
3/ "abbé" is a title
4/ "Aubignac" is the name of the abbey he was at the head of, that's why there is a
5/ particle "d'".
By chance, his family name is not "de Hédelin"
For his writings, in an alphabetical list of bibliography, he must appear at AUBIGNAC, not at HÉDELIN,because he is known as AUBIGNAC.
In citation, since we just cite him, its title can appear after the given name, family name, but separated from them with a comma.
As you can see, to obtain it I had to "cheat" too.
I entered Hédelin as a second given name, so it cannot be put in small-caps or ...
Maybe somebody could propose a better solution for this kind of names ?
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/42412/Francois-Hedelin-abbe-dAubignac
Sorry for the trouble
The fact that the family name in this case, properly speaking, is Hédelin will be an issue if that must be reflected in typography. With a two-field entry system, I think we're just stuck at that point; some touch-up of the final manuscript may be required. It's a case we should keep in mind, though, in case opportunities arise for treating it with greater precision.
Thank you for your cooperation and patience !
[No use case for me - and I'm not even sure how this has to be cited.]
Unfortunately for us, American names, even those with european origin, don't behave the same way french names do. I don't think, american names ever refer to a "fief" as a patronymic.
France's history covers large periods where quite a few noble men and women were authors, and we have to do with that heritage!
So please maintain the actual way of handling these names, we really need it.
Sincerely