Dear Zotero Team,
I have the same opinion. It would be very good and usefull to have WEBDAV support for group libraries. Please implement this feature once you can.
Thank you,
people, please read the thread above - this isn't going to happen for technical reasons.
By now Zotero has released the server code for Zotero server as alexuw and schock asked for above. If people want to put in the significant work to make this possible locally, that's likely the way to go, but the Zotero team has said over and over again that they will not provide it.
Alex has set up a site that links to the relevant code and documentation.
What other software, btw., does what Zotero does with a WebDav or similar solution?
I confess I did not read the entire 35 post, but I'll do as soon as possible to discover the technical reason for it not being able to sync group libraries.
In the end, one can always have the same username/password shared by many people accessing the same library which would result in something similar to a Group Library where everyone could write/delete... on it.
As to other software I have not searched quite thoroughly, but someone have mentioned it to me before, even though one had to pay licences for using it.
Our concern is not related to paying fees or available space, but having our files under secured/backed up and under our control.
The real problem that I see here is the contempt that Zotero developers seem to show for users time and again. It's clear in this thread and I have seen it in other threads as well. Here's what Dan and Sean's responses to the question--Can we have WebDAV for groups?--boil down to:
1) No. It's technical and difficult. You wouldn't understand.
2) No. And if you don't like it, go build it yourself.
3) No. Because Zotero is ours and we said so.
I don't know how to make Zotero do group sync with WebDAV. And I don't have time to figure it out because I have work to do...humanities work in fact. Zotero was supposedly built to provide valuable tools for me and the others in this forum, humanities scholars who want to do humanities work and who do not necessarily have the training or time to devote to building Zotero for the Zotero team. Heck, apparently it's even too hard for the Zotero developers. At least, that's the impression that Dan and Sean are giving. So why should the users have to figure it out for themselves?
But that doesn't mean that it's not an obviously necessary feature for Zotero to really be useful as a group collaboration tool. So I'm sorry, Zotero team, that you can't figure out how to make this happen. But that's your problem, not the users' problem. To the response that if we don't like it we should go and build it ourselves, I have this response:
No. Instead, I'll go and find some other tool to use. Humanities people got along well before Zotero; they can continue to work without it if necessary. And for real group collaboration, without WebDAV, working without Zotero will remain necessary. Either do what you said you were going to do (provide a tool that will allow humanities scholars to meaningfully collaborate) or don't. But when you fail to meet that goal--which you have thus far--don't blame them or tell them to do it themselves.
You do understand that you can share files in groups with Zotero storage, right? So this is possible. You don't provide any reason on why Zotero devs should create a redundant feature.
It's just not possible if you're not willing to pay the rather low fee for Zotero storage that, among other things, allows Zotero development to continue.
Do you really find that so crazy?
You also mischaracterize what devs have said. It's
1. We don't know how to do it
2. Well, if you don't believe us and think this is super easy to do, why don't you do it yourself
where 2 seems like a perfectly reasonable defense to what essentially amounts to an accusation of lying.
1. I don't believe it is that hard to develop it (for someone who's already involved in the project) as part of it is already done for the private repository
2. Even though zotero provides storage, due to legal and privacy constraints one may not be able to trust on their servers, therefore providing a webdav alternative server location would solve this issue. This has nothing to do with money and cost problems, this issue is only related to privacy and trust. How does one know that zotero servers are not easily hackable? Is Zotero willing to sign an agreement and take full responsibility on securing that information online, regardless of what attack they may suffer?
First, yes, I know about Zotero file storage. The price for Zotero storage is not a "rather low fee." Dropbox is by no means the cheapest solution out there and they offer 100GB for $200 while Zotero wants to charge $240 for 25GB.
Second, even if I wanted to pay to keep Zotero development going, it's hard to understand why Zotero storage is so much more expensive than other storage solutions which are themselves already at the top of the price scale for what's available.
Third, with the kind of attitude expressed by developers in this thread, why would I want to pay to keep Zotero development going? It doesn't do what I (and many others) have said we need it to do and the developers all but told us to go and jump off a cliff. Why would I pay for more of that? That does, in fact, seem crazy to me.
Zotero folks seem to be of the mind that everyone hates the for-profit solutions (RefMan, EndNote, Bookends, etc.) so much that they are willing to put up with Zotero's shortcomings to make some sort of political point. That's not the case at all. To this day, most of the scholars that I know still use a for-profit citation management solution (if they use one at all). Most people have work to do and just need their software to work. Their response to "go build it yourself" is NOT to go build it themselves but to go find another solution. If you really want people to make the switch to Zotero, the attitude expressed by developers in this thread (and elsewhere) is not the way to go about it.
Fourth, I didn't mischaracterize at all, which is proved by your restatement of the developers' postion. Yes, I know that they have said they don't know how to make group WebDAV work. I said that in my post. I don't think they're lying. I think they are telling the truth. I think they really don't know how to do this. But that's not my or the other users' problem that they can't figure out a way to give the users what they say they need, what the developers have promised, in a way that doesn't require people to use Zotero's overpriced storage.
Fifth, nuno.bett has a great point about privacy. Recently, Zotero has touted it's switch to Amazon Web Services and storage. Have we all forgotten that Amazon dumped WikiLeaks at the first sign of pressure from Senator Lieberman? In my own line of research, I have been doing work with the WikiLeaks cables and will the emails obtained by Anonymous after they hacked the HBGary website. In addition to not wanting to pay for Zotero's overpriced storage, I would also worry about having any of this data stored with Amazon. Would they delete all of my data were they to find out its contents? Worse, would I (or Zotero) be prosecuted?
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea behind Zotero. I want to be a fan of the project. But I have found time and again that it's not ready for prime time and that any legitimate criticisms (like those expressed above over and over by well-meaning users) is met with a "go do it yourself" kind of response from the developers. That is why I (and other scholars that I have talked to) still have a lot of reservations about using and recommending Zotero.
1. That's just silly - do you have any reason to think that devs are lying to you? Group storage is significantly more complex than individual accounts, hence the difference.
2. If privacy is a concern, WebDav seems insufficient for most purposese - all the metadata is still on Zotero servers anyway. See my post about running Zotero server locally above - devs have been clear about that being a) possible and b) not supported by them from the beginning.
For what it's worth, within the US you're likely legally safe relying on Zotero servers, which comply with all the standard security regulations.
Thanks, adamsmith and others for your valiant attempts to provide meaningful and levelheaded queries and responses. I'm closing this thread since it seems to have veered largely off-track. Please feel free to start new threads as needed, e.g. "Market analysis of online storage services compared to costs associated with developing and maintaining production-grade software and server infrastructure."
Upgrade Storage
It would be very useful for integration with our website.
I have the same opinion. It would be very good and usefull to have WEBDAV support for group libraries. Please implement this feature once you can.
Thank you,
I'm trying to make my research team to use Zotero, but not having WEBDAV support for group libraries is definitely a huge point against it's adoption.
Therefore, we'll have to use other software for doing the same thing.
Please implement this feature whenever it is possible.
By now Zotero has released the server code for Zotero server as alexuw and schock asked for above. If people want to put in the significant work to make this possible locally, that's likely the way to go, but the Zotero team has said over and over again that they will not provide it.
Alex has set up a site that links to the relevant code and documentation.
What other software, btw., does what Zotero does with a WebDav or similar solution?
Anyway - this thread can be closed.
In the end, one can always have the same username/password shared by many people accessing the same library which would result in something similar to a Group Library where everyone could write/delete... on it.
As to other software I have not searched quite thoroughly, but someone have mentioned it to me before, even though one had to pay licences for using it.
Our concern is not related to paying fees or available space, but having our files under secured/backed up and under our control.
1) No. It's technical and difficult. You wouldn't understand.
2) No. And if you don't like it, go build it yourself.
3) No. Because Zotero is ours and we said so.
I don't know how to make Zotero do group sync with WebDAV. And I don't have time to figure it out because I have work to do...humanities work in fact. Zotero was supposedly built to provide valuable tools for me and the others in this forum, humanities scholars who want to do humanities work and who do not necessarily have the training or time to devote to building Zotero for the Zotero team. Heck, apparently it's even too hard for the Zotero developers. At least, that's the impression that Dan and Sean are giving. So why should the users have to figure it out for themselves?
But that doesn't mean that it's not an obviously necessary feature for Zotero to really be useful as a group collaboration tool. So I'm sorry, Zotero team, that you can't figure out how to make this happen. But that's your problem, not the users' problem. To the response that if we don't like it we should go and build it ourselves, I have this response:
No. Instead, I'll go and find some other tool to use. Humanities people got along well before Zotero; they can continue to work without it if necessary. And for real group collaboration, without WebDAV, working without Zotero will remain necessary. Either do what you said you were going to do (provide a tool that will allow humanities scholars to meaningfully collaborate) or don't. But when you fail to meet that goal--which you have thus far--don't blame them or tell them to do it themselves.
It's just not possible if you're not willing to pay the rather low fee for Zotero storage that, among other things, allows Zotero development to continue.
Do you really find that so crazy?
You also mischaracterize what devs have said. It's
1. We don't know how to do it
2. Well, if you don't believe us and think this is super easy to do, why don't you do it yourself
where 2 seems like a perfectly reasonable defense to what essentially amounts to an accusation of lying.
2. Even though zotero provides storage, due to legal and privacy constraints one may not be able to trust on their servers, therefore providing a webdav alternative server location would solve this issue. This has nothing to do with money and cost problems, this issue is only related to privacy and trust. How does one know that zotero servers are not easily hackable? Is Zotero willing to sign an agreement and take full responsibility on securing that information online, regardless of what attack they may suffer?
Second, even if I wanted to pay to keep Zotero development going, it's hard to understand why Zotero storage is so much more expensive than other storage solutions which are themselves already at the top of the price scale for what's available.
Third, with the kind of attitude expressed by developers in this thread, why would I want to pay to keep Zotero development going? It doesn't do what I (and many others) have said we need it to do and the developers all but told us to go and jump off a cliff. Why would I pay for more of that? That does, in fact, seem crazy to me.
Zotero folks seem to be of the mind that everyone hates the for-profit solutions (RefMan, EndNote, Bookends, etc.) so much that they are willing to put up with Zotero's shortcomings to make some sort of political point. That's not the case at all. To this day, most of the scholars that I know still use a for-profit citation management solution (if they use one at all). Most people have work to do and just need their software to work. Their response to "go build it yourself" is NOT to go build it themselves but to go find another solution. If you really want people to make the switch to Zotero, the attitude expressed by developers in this thread (and elsewhere) is not the way to go about it.
Fourth, I didn't mischaracterize at all, which is proved by your restatement of the developers' postion. Yes, I know that they have said they don't know how to make group WebDAV work. I said that in my post. I don't think they're lying. I think they are telling the truth. I think they really don't know how to do this. But that's not my or the other users' problem that they can't figure out a way to give the users what they say they need, what the developers have promised, in a way that doesn't require people to use Zotero's overpriced storage.
Fifth, nuno.bett has a great point about privacy. Recently, Zotero has touted it's switch to Amazon Web Services and storage. Have we all forgotten that Amazon dumped WikiLeaks at the first sign of pressure from Senator Lieberman? In my own line of research, I have been doing work with the WikiLeaks cables and will the emails obtained by Anonymous after they hacked the HBGary website. In addition to not wanting to pay for Zotero's overpriced storage, I would also worry about having any of this data stored with Amazon. Would they delete all of my data were they to find out its contents? Worse, would I (or Zotero) be prosecuted?
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea behind Zotero. I want to be a fan of the project. But I have found time and again that it's not ready for prime time and that any legitimate criticisms (like those expressed above over and over by well-meaning users) is met with a "go do it yourself" kind of response from the developers. That is why I (and other scholars that I have talked to) still have a lot of reservations about using and recommending Zotero.
2. If privacy is a concern, WebDav seems insufficient for most purposese - all the metadata is still on Zotero servers anyway. See my post about running Zotero server locally above - devs have been clear about that being a) possible and b) not supported by them from the beginning.
For what it's worth, within the US you're likely legally safe relying on Zotero servers, which comply with all the standard security regulations.