Problem using Zotero footnotes with Word footnotes

helen07
I have a problem because I'm using both Word and Zotero footnotes. I'm a historian using both primary and secondary sources, and I'm using regular Word footnotes for primary sources (since each source is unique), and Zotero only for my secondary sources. The problem is that if I have a Zotero footnote for a particular source, then several intervening primary source notes, then another Zotero note for the same source as above, the footnote comes out as "Ibid," even when the note immediately above it is a totally different primary source. No amount of refreshing, closing and opening the document, etc. changes that. Does anyone have any suggestions for how to fix this problem? Entering my 10,000+ primary sources into Zotero is not an option, unfortunately.
  • bdarcus
    I'm not sure there is any way to resolve the problem. The formatting processor cannot reliably handle contextual substitutions like "ibid" (nor the ability to switch between note and in-text styles; which is important in some cases like my field) unless all your citations are marked as such. Can you really not add those sources to Zotero as you need them (rather than all at once)?
  • scot
    The other option (which is admittedly unfortunate) is to use only Zotero's quick copy function to produce footnotes to your clipboard, and paste them into zotero.
    This lets you have ultimate control over how your footnotes look. The price is that you have to give up some automation. You're back to manually adding Ibids, and then changing them when you insert an intervening footnote.

    I wonder if there would be a way to add a small hack to the Word plugin which would allow the insertion of a 'dummy' item, the effect of which would be to force the citation processor to clear its memory of the immediately previous item. This would help for other cases when a person has to throw in the odd hand-composed citation for things which Z doesn't handle yet (including original version or original-language information, or "Title of a Multi-volume Set."
  • alexnvv
    I'd like to second this issue. Sometimes I insert content foot/endnotes rather than reference foot/endnotes. Nevertheless, the next reference foot/endnote should not be "ibid", because it does not refer to the previous note. Thanks.

    Alex
  • dcory
    This is a real problem. It would be nice if Zotero could properly handle primary source material. One partial solution is to enter the bibliographic data into zotero as best you can, making sure you fill in the "second citation" field. It can handle second citations very well. The only cleanup required before publication then would be fixing the first instances of primary source material.

    This might become cumbersome if you are doing work where you cite tons of documents in a work. (In my writing, I tend not to use more than 3-5 primary sources most of the time, unless I do a survey of opinions at the beginning of a paper).
  • sean
    edited July 3, 2008
    Somehow this topic has gone horribly off-track. Zotero can and does handle "primary" source material. It's just that the original poster for esoteric reasons decided to not use Zotero for her primary sources. To address the actual heart of her question, the matter of how Zotero handles "Ibid." when other, manual footnotes intervene, this problem is fairly intractable, though we may be able to solve it technically. In the meantime, unless you're dealing with a serious stickler for dead language conventions, may I recommend a "no-ibid" style? I use the no-ibid Chicago, and it works great for me.
  • Johnny3
    Hello, I'm a new user, this is my first forum post. Regarding "ibid," I'm also a historian. The convention in my field now, by and large, is that "ibid" is obsolete. The Chicago Manual of Style and Turabian (the newest versions) both discourage using the term in citation, as do most scholarly journal style sheets.

    The reason is that because now, in the electronic age, cutting and pasting is easy. If an "ibid" reference is cut and pasted somewhere else in the document, it no longer refers to the preceding citation.

    Can the Zotero interface be tweaked to have an option that allows/disallows "ibid?" Not a huge deal, I can correct the citations manually, but it would be nice. Thanks.
  • dstillman
    Johnny: There's a no-ibid version of Chicago on the styles page.
  • sean
    I wish that the Chicago Manual of Style did in fact discourage Ibid., but I find no such evidence in the 15th edition. Please let us know if you find otherwise. As Dan points out, we do offer a no-Ibid. version, and if CMS indicates that Ibid. is deprecated, we'll happily follow those changes.
  • bdarcus
    edited July 22, 2008
    Yeah, I see no evidence Chicago discourages ibid. A source would be nice.

    But, as I've said before, I also think that Zotero should offer a user preference to switch off ibid handling. It's easy-to-implement, user-friendly, and avoids needless duplication of styles.
  • Johnny3
    Sorry, my bad. My colleagues told me that Chicago claimed ibid was going out of style. Turns out that's not true. The latest Turabian makes ibid "optional," and Turabian is based on Chicago; maybe that's where the confusion came from. Anyway, I'll double-check my sources next time.

    http://anotherhistoryblog.blogspot.com/2007/10/ibid-rip.html

    I'd offer the Turabian section or page #, but I own Turabian sixth edition, not the seventh.

    Thanks for the styles page tip.
  • revalanc@bellsouth.n
    Has there been any recent work done on this problem? I went through my defense and this was told Turabian did not allow this any more I do not know how to change it. I am using the latest version of the Firefox add-on and Word plug-in.
  • adamsmith
    please don't double post. Answered here:
    http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/1572/removing-ibid/#Item_4
    this 5 year old thread should be closed.
This discussion has been closed.