Woops. Don't know how I missed this, but it seems there's a problem with page numbers for books and chapters within books - when citing specific pages, Zotero omits "p." or "pp." before the page number, which is required. Sorry - I'm not sure why I didn't see that before. Or did it maybe get lost when the multi-volume part got updated ("p." and "pp." don't appear when directly after the volume number)?
OK - I didn't pay a lot of attention to this before - I don't think it was ever right.
The current style does the following
1. Use p and pp for page ranges in chapters books etc.
2. don't use p. and pp. for page ranges in journal articles
3. Take out the page range when a specific page is cited.
If I understand correctly, it should be:
1. Use p. and pp. for all page ranges, unless a volume number is given (I don't think there is a reasonable way to deal with "immediately preceded by the volume number"
2. Don't ommitt the specific page when a page number is given, but add the page number (locator in zotero speak) in parentheses.
I can do 1. We've talked about 2. above and there is the workaround using the suffix option, but I hadn't completely understood the situation and I think ideally this should work with the page so you can switch between MHRA and other styles.
If you could confirm that I have all this right I'll try to fix it.
Almost. 'p.' and 'pp.' should be used for page ranges for everything except 1) the multi-volume works you mention and 2) articles in journals.
The 'p.' and 'pp.' are always used for specific page citations regardless of what's being used with the page range. And yes - the page range should never not appear.
You're right - currently I'm getting around that by using the suffix option (which also - minor point - doesn't put a space in between what's typed there and the last character of the citation; I've just internalized always typing a space first there, but if there's no reason not to have a space, could one be added automatically?).
And finally, as for the volume number issue - it doesn't really matter. The style guide says something about the number being 'reasonably near' - I don't think anyone would ever care enough to split hairs.
OK, could you try again with the style at
http://gist.github.com/228849
I think I've got it - even the pages should work correctly now. I hope it's OK that I'm sending you to do all the testing, this is really helpful - the style is complicated and you seem to know it very well.
This was actually a lot easier than I expected - advantage of a well written style.
No problem - my testing is a whole lot easier than my learning CSL!
The journal article now works perfectly - it gives the range and puts the specific page ref in parentheses. The same is true for book sections/chapters, with one caveat (which may have been a problem before) - if the book is multi-volume it's not giving the total number of volumes (I'm assuming that can just be fixed with whatever you changed before for whole books that are multi-volume.)
There are a couple of other problems, now, though:
1. For books, it's putting the page citation in parentheses now. The same is true of dissertations. (Also, a minor point I didn't realize before - it should say 'unpublished thesis' for dissertations - i.e. NAME, 'TITLE' (unpublished thesis, UNI, YEAR), p. __.)
2. For magazine articles, the page range is missing.
@adamsmith One thing we might consider for the future is building test suites for the major styles, using the machinery we've used to test the processor itself. The idea would be to work up a bundle of standard data items, and write a set of calls on the data with corresponding output. Then when changes are made to the CSL for the style, you could quickly see whether it had any unexpected side effects.
Something like that will probably be needed for Bluebook (shudder), for which there will be lots of little twists and turns in the handling of item types and whatnot. Once workable infrastructure for style testing is built, It might be useful for other styles as well -- it would just be a matter of drafting the expected output for the same tests, and pointing the engine at a different target CSL file.
An example of a book reference is: Robert Young, Colonial Desire: Hybridity in Theory, Culture, and Race (London: Routledge, 1995), p. 101.
Actually, just looked at it again - the volume issue is now back for books and book sections (chapters). I guess whatever you did before has not carried over.
sorry for the delay - the regressions were indeed due to the fact that I had been working on an old version of the style. I've updated it now, please re-install from the additional styles sections of the repository or just using this link
http://www.zotero.org/styles/mhra/dev?install=1
and report back. I really hope I got it all now - I fixed the page range for magazine articles and changed the way locators are given for citations in books (and other works that don't have page ranges). Thanks again for testing.
HI!
I am using MHRA with biblio style- I have downloaded (I THINK? just clinking the above link, isnt it? It doesnt say that Im 'done' or something like that...) the above link.
However:
Problem 1: my materials grabbed from the internet are showing up without website addresses
Problem 2: I add some notes to some of the citations, and they disappear upon clicking 'refresh'
Problem 3: When there are 2 articles/books by the same authors, they are not recognised as such and repeated citation simply supply author's name, so it looks like we are talking about the same article!
Problem 1 - can't replicate. What item type are those materials? Do they have page numbers?
Problem 2 - if you just write into a citation your text will disappear upon refreshing. The best way to add notes to citation is by using the suffix-prefix fields in the add citation dialogue
Problem 3 - hmm - I'll have a look - that might be complicated, not sure why that hasn't come up as a problem in the past. It looks like the style should do this correctly, but I'm not sure.
Hi Adamsmith
THANKS for your help - let me clarify
P1: When I click 'create item from current page' for articles from the internet, the meta information does get captured, but the website address do not show up at all when I 'add citation' in my word doc. Must I hence add the addresses manually? Or I must be doing something wrong? Thanks
P2: Good - it works! Thanks very much. Learnt my lesson.
P4: For subsequent mentions of the same work by the same author, the entire citation reappears (rather than only showing up with author's name).
Maybe I did something wrong? Because in the same document that Im working on, this problem didnt show up (hence I had P3 above), but now, entire citations repeat. Even when I 'refresh', they are not recognised as repetitions.
Hi Adamsmith,
sorry, I thought I should do more asking while I am here -
P5: there is always a gap before the date and after the publication's title, like this:
(Picador, 1997) instead of (Picador, 1997).
Its not a big problem, and I am happy to correct things manually, as Im grateful to be able to use this open source programme! But Im just wondering if maybe its again something idiotic Im doing.
I'm a bit confused - why are your citations in parentheses?
Also, the two things you wrote above look exactly the same - you may need to describe (as in "comma followed by two spaces" or so) what happens because the built-in style sheet of the forum makes some things (such as double spaces) disappear.
I'll check the rest.
P5: this is what my footnote looks like (MHRA with biblio):
Bruce Chatwin, Anatomy of Restlessness: Uncollected Writings New edition edn (Picador, 1997). (pp 100-106)
So publisher Picador, 1997 is in parenthesis, which is correct for this style, but the citation always appear such that instead of (Picador comma followed by 1 space followed by year), it always appears as (Picador comma followed by 2 spaces followed by year). Its not a big problem for manual correction, but Im just wondering if its a oversight/bug.
Thank you so much !
vicklyn - happy new year.
What bdarcus said about the error. I think I had just fixed that, but you need to re-install the style. Could you just click on the install link (on the prior forum page) again and click OK to upgrade? Does the error persist?
Upgrade Storage
Thanks!
The current style does the following
1. Use p and pp for page ranges in chapters books etc.
2. don't use p. and pp. for page ranges in journal articles
3. Take out the page range when a specific page is cited.
If I understand correctly, it should be:
1. Use p. and pp. for all page ranges, unless a volume number is given (I don't think there is a reasonable way to deal with "immediately preceded by the volume number"
2. Don't ommitt the specific page when a page number is given, but add the page number (locator in zotero speak) in parentheses.
I can do 1. We've talked about 2. above and there is the workaround using the suffix option, but I hadn't completely understood the situation and I think ideally this should work with the page so you can switch between MHRA and other styles.
If you could confirm that I have all this right I'll try to fix it.
The 'p.' and 'pp.' are always used for specific page citations regardless of what's being used with the page range. And yes - the page range should never not appear.
You're right - currently I'm getting around that by using the suffix option (which also - minor point - doesn't put a space in between what's typed there and the last character of the citation; I've just internalized always typing a space first there, but if there's no reason not to have a space, could one be added automatically?).
And finally, as for the volume number issue - it doesn't really matter. The style guide says something about the number being 'reasonably near' - I don't think anyone would ever care enough to split hairs.
http://gist.github.com/228849
I think I've got it - even the pages should work correctly now. I hope it's OK that I'm sending you to do all the testing, this is really helpful - the style is complicated and you seem to know it very well.
This was actually a lot easier than I expected - advantage of a well written style.
The journal article now works perfectly - it gives the range and puts the specific page ref in parentheses. The same is true for book sections/chapters, with one caveat (which may have been a problem before) - if the book is multi-volume it's not giving the total number of volumes (I'm assuming that can just be fixed with whatever you changed before for whole books that are multi-volume.)
There are a couple of other problems, now, though:
1. For books, it's putting the page citation in parentheses now. The same is true of dissertations. (Also, a minor point I didn't realize before - it should say 'unpublished thesis' for dissertations - i.e. NAME, 'TITLE' (unpublished thesis, UNI, YEAR), p. __.)
2. For magazine articles, the page range is missing.
2. shouldn't be a problem.
I'll look into the volume issue - you say that only occurs for book sections, right?
Something like that will probably be needed for Bluebook (shudder), for which there will be lots of little twists and turns in the handling of item types and whatnot. Once workable infrastructure for style testing is built, It might be useful for other styles as well -- it would just be a matter of drafting the expected output for the same tests, and pointing the engine at a different target CSL file.
Robert Young, Colonial Desire: Hybridity in Theory, Culture, and Race (London: Routledge, 1995), p. 101.
Actually, just looked at it again - the volume issue is now back for books and book sections (chapters). I guess whatever you did before has not carried over.
I did notice just now that the problem with articles with no authors is back.
http://www.zotero.org/styles/mhra/dev?install=1
and report back. I really hope I got it all now - I fixed the page range for magazine articles and changed the way locators are given for citations in books (and other works that don't have page ranges). Thanks again for testing.
I am using MHRA with biblio style- I have downloaded (I THINK? just clinking the above link, isnt it? It doesnt say that Im 'done' or something like that...) the above link.
However:
Problem 1: my materials grabbed from the internet are showing up without website addresses
Problem 2: I add some notes to some of the citations, and they disappear upon clicking 'refresh'
Problem 3: When there are 2 articles/books by the same authors, they are not recognised as such and repeated citation simply supply author's name, so it looks like we are talking about the same article!
THANKS!
Vicky
Problem 2 - if you just write into a citation your text will disappear upon refreshing. The best way to add notes to citation is by using the suffix-prefix fields in the add citation dialogue
Problem 3 - hmm - I'll have a look - that might be complicated, not sure why that hasn't come up as a problem in the past. It looks like the style should do this correctly, but I'm not sure.
THANKS for your help - let me clarify
P1: When I click 'create item from current page' for articles from the internet, the meta information does get captured, but the website address do not show up at all when I 'add citation' in my word doc. Must I hence add the addresses manually? Or I must be doing something wrong? Thanks
P2: Good - it works! Thanks very much. Learnt my lesson.
P3: Thanks for looking into this! Let me know.
Another problem:
P4: For subsequent mentions of the same work by the same author, the entire citation reappears (rather than only showing up with author's name).
Maybe I did something wrong? Because in the same document that Im working on, this problem didnt show up (hence I had P3 above), but now, entire citations repeat. Even when I 'refresh', they are not recognised as repetitions.
Thanks!
sorry, I thought I should do more asking while I am here -
P5: there is always a gap before the date and after the publication's title, like this:
(Picador, 1997) instead of (Picador, 1997).
Its not a big problem, and I am happy to correct things manually, as Im grateful to be able to use this open source programme! But Im just wondering if maybe its again something idiotic Im doing.
MUCH THANKS!
Also, the two things you wrote above look exactly the same - you may need to describe (as in "comma followed by two spaces" or so) what happens because the built-in style sheet of the forum makes some things (such as double spaces) disappear.
I'll check the rest.
P5: this is what my footnote looks like (MHRA with biblio):
Bruce Chatwin, Anatomy of Restlessness: Uncollected Writings New edition edn (Picador, 1997). (pp 100-106)
So publisher Picador, 1997 is in parenthesis, which is correct for this style, but the citation always appear such that instead of (Picador comma followed by 1 space followed by year), it always appears as (Picador comma followed by 2 spaces followed by year). Its not a big problem for manual correction, but Im just wondering if its a oversight/bug.
Thank you so much !
Sorry I have just experienced a new problem (so this is problem 6) :
ERROR REPORT: 526701255
I cant add any citation now! it just says 'error updating your document'.
Please help. Thanks!
Vicky
What bdarcus said about the error. I think I had just fixed that, but you need to re-install the style. Could you just click on the install link (on the prior forum page) again and click OK to upgrade? Does the error persist?