Ibid don't change when a new footnote is inserted before it

Nicolae
Hi,
In OpenOffice, Ibid don't change when a new footnote is inserted before it (Chicago style).

e.g.

1. Cioran, Caiete.
2. Ibid.
3.....

If I insert a footnote after the footnote 1, the result is:

1. Cioran, Caiete.
2. Liiceanu, Title
3. Ibid.
4.....

Ibid. at note 3 isn't correct!!! It doesn't change to Cioran, Caiete!!!

Mihai
  • sybille
    Try closing and reopening the document, and then refreshing the Zotero data. I was having similar problems with Ibid and the above method fixed them.
  • Nicolae
    Thanks,
    Mihai
  • sybille
    Glad it works for you too. :)
  • helen07
    I have a related Ibid problem. I tried the above suggestion for getting rid of an erroneous Ibid, and refreshing Zotero works fine if both the footnotes are Zotero footnotes. But I'm a historian and I'm using both primary and secondary sources, and I'm using regular Word footnotes for primary sources (since each source is unique), and Zotero only for my secondary sources. The problem is that if I have a Zotero footnote for a particular source, then several intervening primary source notes, then another Zotero note for the same source as above, Ibid comes out, and no amount of refreshing, etc. changes that. Does anyone have any suggestions for how to fix this problem? Entering my 10,000+ primary sources into Zotero is not an option, unfortunately.
  • dnw
    helen07,
    For Zotero to work properly with Ibid it needs to handle all the citations. Zotero does not 'see' the other footnotes and does not know that they are citations rather than comments etc.
  • marisabrandt
    I'm also a historian, and am anticipating a similar problem. Is it possible to turn off "Ibid." for Chicago Manual, or have a new style that is without Ibid.? I don't believe it's really necessary in Chicago anymore, but even if it is, I'd rather go through and add it manually if necessary than have it Ibid. incorrectly, so to speak.

    Thanks!
  • marisabrandt
    Also, I just checked, and (before I've inserted an non-Zotero footnotes), it looks like Ibid. is handled correctly when I insert another Zotero note between two citations to the same source, but if I later remove a note that separates two such citations, it doesn't go back to Ibid. Is this a bug?

    Thanks,
    Marisa
  • erazlogo
    edited January 21, 2008
    Also, I just checked, and (before I've inserted an non-Zotero footnotes), it looks like Ibid. is handled correctly when I insert another Zotero note between two citations to the same source, but if I later remove a note that separates two such citations, it doesn't go back to Ibid. Is this a bug?
    Try refreshing Zotero data--that should work in Word.

    You can also try creating all footnotes manually and just dragging Zotero references into Word.
  • bdarcus
    You can also try creating all footnotes manually and just dragging Zotero references into Word.
    One can do that, but be forwarned that you're then responsible for updating references manually. I'd hate to do that myself.

    It might make sense for Zotero to offer a user option to ignore ibid rules in a style?
  • erazlogo
    I can easily create another Chicago style that doesn't use ibid. I'm inclined to do that, but then we'll have 5 Chicago styles, of which 4 will be note styles--is that wise?
  • cartesian
    erazlogo and bdarcus:
    Surely the best way to solve helen07's problem (where Zotero wrongly uses ibid rules after a manually inserted citation) is not to design a new style that ignores ibid rules, but to make it possible to insert a Zotero "Blank" or "Manual" reference marker that wouldn't print, but that would alert Zotero that there's a manual reference in between its last reference and the present one? Couldn't this be a simple button on the insert reference dialog of the word plugin?
  • erazlogo
    edited January 22, 2008
    cartesian: Zotero developers working on the plugin would have to speak to whether the change you propose is feasible. It's a good idea but I'm not sure how difficult it would be to implement this.

    The "no ibid" style is a larger issue--if it is valid to use the Chicago note style without the ibid (which CMS 15 seems to allow), there should be a Zotero style that supports it. I added a Chicago note style without ibid to the Dev Section at http://www.zotero.org/styles/
  • bdarcus
    cartesian: how does that solve the problem? For sake of argument, say you have three citations in a row, which all qualify as ibid. But the second is your "manual" citation. There's no way for Zotero to correctly format those citations.

    elena: creating a new style is a short-term solution, but it's not a good long-term one, not least because the primary reason this user wants to turn off ibid is because of a bug. But more generally, a rule like ibid is a soft rule; really an option. I think the correct solution is that Zotero add a preference to turn off ibid handling. Otherwise, we'll have unnecessary duplication.
  • erazlogo
    edited January 22, 2008
    bruce: ok, i moved the discussion on the ibid preference issue to the dev list.
  • cartesian
    bruce: I don't see the problem with the scenario you suggest. If the user wants Zotero to use ibid again on the next citation (although I'm not sure why they would!), they can simply avoid adding the proposed manual reference marker with their manually inserted citation.
  • marisabrandt
    cartesian: your suggestion would completely meet my ibid-related needs. I don't need or want Zotero to try to deal with my manual citations (I think Bruce was suggesting that people might expect Zotero to somehow format the manual citations they marked using the reference marker) - I just want it to use Ibid. properly for those citations that I am handling via Zotero.

    Sadly, those of us with hundreds (or thousands... sigh) of primary sources to cite are going to have a hard time automating much of the process for those items... though my new ones are actually going into my zotero database.
  • lkeya
    So, I just tried the dev version of the fix, and it caused me to just get the "check to make sure firefox is open" error. Sigh.
  • SamT.
    I tried the fix, and when I refresh the ibid stayed. I closed the document, closed fire fox, reinserted the citation, and...ibid. Is this working for anyone?
  • erazlogo
    edited May 7, 2008
    @samt - what style are you using? you should use "Chicago Note without Bibliography No Ibid" style with dev build of Zotero.
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