"place" field for periodicals

danilo
Hi,

Congratulations to all for the latest upgrade.
There is a request I previously made on topic:
http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/10377/problems-with-date-and-place-fields-for-periodicals/#Item_1
It is the adding of the "place" field for all periodicals item tipes(article-journal; article-magazine; article-newspaper).
Place has been added for article-journal. Why not for all of them? When citing, it is most of the times extremely necessary.
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  • ajlyon
    When citing, it is most of the times extremely necessary.
    Can you please provide a few examples of styles that require a place for journal, magazine and newspaper articles, and what they would look like (i.e., example citations including all the desired information)? I don't doubt you, but it makes it easier for developers to understand precisely what's missing.
  • adamsmith
    there have been examples of this in the past - at least for journals - that's why it's now out there. A whole bunch of non-anglosaxon styles apparently require this, including a Brazilian style cited in the thread danilo links to above.
    And I think the general issue is acknowledged, too, so no need to clarify further.
  • danilo
    Hi,

    Thank you for your answer.
    I think I used the wrong word: it is extremely necessary for the bibliography of periodicals - and not for citing. Sorry for that mistake.
    Brazilian Standards Association (ABNT) has a specific standard for bibliographical references and citations that must be used in every brazilian academic writing: NBR 6023 [it can be seen here: http://www.ifcs.ufrj.br/~aproximacao/abntnbr6023.pdf ]
    The example they use is (topic7.9.3) is:

    BARROS, Raimundo Gomes de. Ministério Público: sua legitimação frente ao Código do Consumidor. Revista Trimestral de Jurisprudência dos Estados, São Paulo, v. 19, n. 139, p. 53-72, ago.1995.

    [in this case, "São Paulo" is the place]
    Unfortunately no institution has taken the charge of building a CSL style based on brazilian standards, and what we have is some custom adaptations done by users like me. I've been editing it only for the item types I use, so it is no complete enough for uploading into ABNT library. Some other ABNT csl styles I've been downloading on the web are still with lots of bugs...
    As for the American standards thad deal with "place" in bibliographical formats, I'm relying on the answer by fbennet on the forum topic I quoted above.

    Anyways, I do think that specifying the place of a publication is important for cataloging it - independently of CSL styles. I've been using Zotero as a research tool, for organizing bibliographical production and for sorting and filtering it in many ways. Periodicals have a place where they've been produced, and this is part of their description. Therefore, the "place" field is necessary for them too, isn't it?
  • ajlyon
    danilo: Thanks for detailing the need, and sorry for asking for more information when apparently the need was already well-documented. Even when styles don't require it, I also prefer maintaining that sort of bibliographic information. Place is a meaningful and useful field for many item types, and it probably should be added to each of them.
  • dstillman
    It is the adding of the "place" field for all periodicals item tipes(article-journal; article-magazine; article-newspaper).
    Place has been added for article-journal.
    "Place" was added to "Thesis" and "Newspaper Article" item types in 2.0rc1.
  • hmouro
    I've just found the "Place" field for newspapers when adding an item. Nice surprise! Thank you so much!
  • danilo
    Hi,
    Thank you for adding "place" field to "Thesis" and "Newspaper article".
    However, we still need the "place" field for "Journal Article" and for "Magazine Article".
    The reasons are those explained above.
    Is it possible? Sorry for the delay on answering that.
  • milene.cha
    I would like to second Danilo's request.
    A "place" field should be available for every item type.
    Thanks
  • DWL-SDCA
    I have a question about "place" as a field for journal articles.

    I gather that this would be the place of journal publication. However, I can name many journals that have undergone one or more changes in their place (city or nation) of publication. I am puzzled about how "place" will be determined for citations where the journal's publication place has changed.

    I am not objecting to adding a place field. Indeed, I like the idea. However, I question how place will be defined.
  • ajlyon
    As with most fields, the meaning of place would be left up to the user-- it is probably supposed to be the publisher's place at the time of publication, but it's conceivable that a style might look for something else. Hopefully not, though.

    It wouldn't be the only thing that can change-- journal names change, and we still use the name that was in use at the time of publication. City names change, and we use the one that was in use at the time.
  • DWL-SDCA
    Thanks for the quick reply to my comment. My concern is, "How could I know the journal's publication place at the time of publication?" Is anyone aware of a database that follows the migration of a journal's publication place move by move? It seems that would be necessary to know the publication place for any particular year. Following changes in publication names and city names are straightforward.

    As someone who is responsible for an online database of the safety research literature, I want to be able to provide the information that is needed for complete citations. If there is a reasonable way for me to include place information by date of publication I would love to do so.
  • ajlyon
    That's not easy-- and perhaps not necessary if you're working in a field or country that doesn't use place of publication in journal citations. I know that the Russian card catalogs (paper ones) that I often use do have this information, and place and name changes are duly noted.

    When the field is added, I'll make due efforts to have Zotero populate it as best it can from the various journal databases, but you're right that the data there won't be perfect.
  • luisiafalves
    edited January 27, 2012
    Hello DWL-SDCA,

    Don't know if you still are looking for a source to the place of a journal, but this site http://portal.revistas.bvs.br/index.php?lang=en informs it.

    And you can look for the full name of a journal - Journal of the american medical association - or not - jou$ Am$ Med$ Ass$.

    Good luck.
  • DWL-SDCA
    Thank you for the link to this resource. The more I browse it the more I like it. While it misses some journals it is quite good. Even Ulrich's doesn't have them all.
  • Geoffrey Kantaris
    I was surprised to find no Place field in the Journal Article item type. This thread amply documents the need for it, and I've now run into a need for it as well.

    This thread seems contradictory because at the top it says that the artcle-journal type does have the Place field, whereas clearly (now?) it doesn't. Maybe it was removed by mistake? If I use type "Conference Paper", I can enter all the fields I require. If I change the type to "Journal Article", Zotero gives me a warning: "The following fields will be lost: Place". Since there is a documented need for place in non-English-language styles, is it possible for it to be added (back) into the Journal Article type? Not only do some styles require it, but it is often essential information for locating an obscure journal published only in a small University town somewhere in Latin America...
  • adamsmith
    this is planned: https://github.com/ajlyon/zotero-bits/issues/16 and there is no dispute around it, but these things go a little slower. The first post is just unfortunately phrased, there was never a place field for journal title, it was just added to the list of planned changes.
  • DWL-SDCA
    @adamsmith
    I'm not sure how to interpret the status of things on Github even though I've read a lot about the site. I suspect that many others are even less aware. Take this topic, for example. I see that a suggestion concerning publication place was made. Two comments were added. Yet, there doesn't seem to be recent activity. There are no milestones and no name is given for programming responsibility.

    Should I interpret this to mean that the idea has been accepted as something worth considering? As something that has been approved but no further action has been taken? When push or pull requests are mentioned in the forums; what does that mean?

    What is "the trunk"? I think that is the candidate code for the next version. However, I don't know how to tell if ideas such as this one (or the author-name case and name order toggle ideas) are actually being added.

    I would be most appreciative of some explanation of how to interpret these things.

    Thanks
  • adamsmith
    note that this isn't on the official Zotero site, hence no milestone, assigned person etc.
    It's the collected wisdom of CSL and Zotero contributors with respect to item types - none of this is guaranteed, but in most cases when people _don't_ agree there is push-back. So take tickets that don't have no vote type comments as likely accepted. The final word is with Zotero devs, in this case mostly Dan I believe.

    None of this is in the "trunk", which is the code for the next major Zotero release (as opposed to the "branch" which is the code for the next minor release). Tickets that have been implemented in the trunk are (or at least should be) closed.

    Pull requests are ways for people without the rights to change the code on github directly to contribute, it's the github way for suggesting a patch. If you're interested in the technical details you can read more here: https://help.github.com/articles/using-pull-requests . They only apply to code, not to issues - everyone can create and comment on issues on github, though developers request that you don't create issues for Zotero without prior discussion on the forum.
  • DWL-SDCA
    Thank you for helping me to better understand these issues and processes
  • danilo
    Hi,
    I'd like to reinforce the need for place field in the other two "article" item types.
    We still need the "place" field for "Journal Article" and for "Magazine Article".
    The reasons are those explained above. ;-)
    Is it possible? Is it planned?
  • adamsmith
    See my post from Sept. 28th above.
  • silviaegt
    edited November 10, 2014
    Just adding up to danilo's request, I think "place" would also be useful when visualizing a collection via Zotero Maps' plugin.
    By the way, thank you so much for all your work!
    I'm a huge fan!
  • Geoffrey Kantaris
    Adding the place field for Journal Articles was planned nearly three years ago, and was felt to be uncontroversial. I still need this almost every time I use Zotero, and have to add it in square brackets after the publicaiton title -- not at all satisfactory. I'm sorry I can't help out wiht development, but I wonder if we're any closer to including it?
  • adamsmith
    It's still uncontroversial and yes, we're much closer to actually getting to fields and item types changes, but it's still not going to happen super soon. Lots of changes under the hood had/have to happen before we can make any changes to the database, hence the delay.
  • Geoffrey Kantaris
    OK, thank you for the update Adam. It's encouraging to know that the issue hasn't been forgotten.
  • aurimas
    (@adamsmith, but he could use the Extra field hack if the style supports this. I'll let you elaborate on that in case I'm missing something here)
  • luisiafalves
    hello,

    I would like to know how is the update on this matter. I discouvered that on mendeley there is the possibility of customize the fields that are shown in each type of document, just don't know how something like this could be done.

    Thank you again!
  • LiborA
    @lusiamed: if you read some others thread in this forum, you can find answers from developers. Now is preparing new version 5.0. New fields are planned into version 5.1.
  • luisiafalves
    Thank you, LiborA!
  • elotroalex
    Good times 5.1.
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