Publisher on Journals

Alexandre Torres
First, I'm a newbie with this. Here is my problem: I created a title from an ACM paper, one of the most classical on my field : The entity-relationship model—toward a unified view of data
http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=320440#

But, it was a surprise when I saw that there is not publisher or publisher-place information about my entry, and could not find a way to store this information. The publisher is stored in the archive entry, but the place isn't. All information is correctly represented in the site, and bibtex (its a seminal paper!)
If I can't retrive basic information such as publisher and publisher place, Zotero will be an useless tool. So I must be doing something WRONG and/or stupid ;)
I'm using the Zotero 1.01 version.
Thanks
  • adamsmith
    Yeah, so it seems this will be useless for you. Journal articles in 99% of all cases aren't cited with a publisher and so Zotero doesn't do that either.
    This is also very much the norm in other databases - not least, because journals do change their publishers and that would lead to an awful mess.

    The citations to me look more like book chapters or conference proceedings (which do have publisher and place fields) so if you want to change this manually you can.
  • adamsmith
    btw. the ACM Ref on that page cites the article without publisher and location, too.

    Chen, P. P. 1976. The entity-relationship model—toward a unified view of data. ACM Trans. Database Syst. 1, 1 (Mar. 1976), 9-36. DOI= http://doi.acm.org/10.1145/320434.320440
  • Alexandre Torres
    Yeah, but the bibtex has the publisher information.
    One workaround is: Use the "archive" information to get the publisher, when there is no publisher. Problem is the "publisher-location". I edited the archive, added the location. I had to adapt the csl file too (but I've got to do that anyway...)
    Is this improved in some later version of Zotero?

    Thanks
  • noksagt
    Zotero does not use the bibtex file with the ACM translator (and is it clear to me that it should). However, the bibtex entry inaccurately characterizes that proceeding as a journal article. It is not clear to me how Zotero should be improved here.
  • borchers@nmt.edu
    Just to be clear, this particular reference is a journal article, from a special issue of a journal devoted to papers that came from a particular conference. It should be cited as a journal article, so the publisher wouldn't normally be included.
  • Alexandre Torres
    It was a Journal article. It may be an extended version from the proceedings of the conference, so it's a different citation.
    A Journal has a number, book chapters don't have numbers nor DOI.
    And as the publisher change, I don't know how to deal with it :(
    I think that the original publisher is the right one. Anyway, it would be nice if I could correct it in the database, and currently I can't add the missing information by hand.
    And about my comments on Zotero, its a great tool. I just feel that it should be more extensible, so that the community could add information in cases such as this.
  • wilgefortz
    But in Austrian, Czech, Slovak, Poland and possibly German journals is common to have publisher and place for example:

    HEJL, E. - LEICHMANN, J.
    Quartäre Tektonik am Ostrand der Bömischen Masse. In Tektonik, Strukturgeologie, Kristallingeologie. Salzburg : Universität Salzburg, 1996. s. 1-2. 1996, Salzburg 1996.

    LEICHMANN, J. - HEJL, E.
    Quarternary tectonics at the eastern border of the Bohemian massif: new outcrop evidence. Geological Magazine, Cambridge, Cambridge University Press. ISSN 0016-7568, 1996, vol. 133, no. 1, s. 103-105.
  • athelas
    Firsty I wanted to support wilgefortz but then I reviewed ISO norm and guidelines (Slovak in this case) and I have to say, that our norm also omit publisher and place in case of journal article. So it does make sense, not to have it in Zotero. The only question is, if it would hurt much if it will be there, so those who want can use it.
  • Alexandre Torres
    just to reopen this discussion. Publisher location is required by the ABNT, that regulates ALL publications at my home country (Brazil). That means that for 200 million users of Brazil, Zotero is just useless.
    There is if 5 years of useless discussion about if this field "Should be at Zotero"... Changed my opinion on this product, it is just USELESS crap from people that ignores South America from generations.
    Sorry to say what I think about you arrogant folk!
  • adamsmith
    No item type of field changes have been implemented in the last 5 years. When they are - in Zotero version 4.2 - publisher information is scheduled to be added to journals (and some other item types)
    https://github.com/ajlyon/zotero-bits/issues/16
    There are countless threads explaining this, including one
    pinned at the top of the forums. You're way out of line here and I suggest you apologize.
  • Alexandre Torres
    For 5 years of waiting? And it is still scheduled? c´mon
    no apologize for the incopetence of Zotero team.
    From where I came, the customer should be pleased, not the inverse situation. So YOU should apologize Sr.
    Do whatever you want, this is my last post, the last time I use it, the last time I will recommend this tool. In my opinion, it is crap.
  • RintzeRintze
    The Zotero developers (and other code contributors) are well aware of the issue, and it affects users globally. It's just that changing fields in Zotero is far from trivial, and is dependent on other changes to the Zotero code that the main developer is currently working on.

    Apart from that, see https://www.zotero.org/support/forum_guidelines#etiquette . Insults will do nothing but get you banned.
  • camilomonteiro
    Alguma atualização quanto às informações do campo "local de publicação do periódico"?
    O Zotero gera:
    HALLAL, P. C. et al. Evolution of the epidemiological research on physical activity in Brazil: a systematic review. Revista de Saúde Pública, v. 41, n. 3, p. 453–460, 2007.

    Mas o formato ABNT (Brasil) pede o local de publicação, ou seja, local do periódico (i.e. São Paulo), como em:
    HALLAL, P. C. et al. Evolution of the epidemiological research on physical activity in Brazil: a systematic review. Revista de Saúde Pública, São Paulo, v. 41, n. 3, p. 453–460, 2007.
  • adamsmith
    nothing new: same answer as above.
  • camilomonteiro
    Agradeço a atenção, adamsmith. Usarei uma parte das palavras do Alexandre Torres, e acredito que a solução desta lacuna tornará o Zotero ainda mais usado (principalmente aqui no Brasil). Venho fazendo uma ampla divulgação do software aqui no Brasil, específicamente na Universidade Federal do Triângulo Mineiro, local onde sou aluno de mestrado. Tenho ministrado palestras sobre o gerenciamento de referências com o uso do Zotero e a busca pela disseminação (através destas palestras) tem crescido. A solução deste pequeno problema poderá fazer com ainda mais pessoas utilizem o software e o difunda ainda mais. Ciente da compreensão da equipe de desenvolvedores, aguardo um retorno e forte abraço.
  • fbennett
    The {:publisher: Oxford} workaround might be useful for the ABNT style.
  • camilomonteiro
    @fbennett, poderia me esclarecer um pouco mais?
  • adamsmith
    We understand that and there is no debate about this issue anymore--it will be implemented, it's just more complicated than it looks from the outside, which is why it's taking so long.
    That has nothing to do with where it's used. There are a significant number of missing item types and fields that affect US users and the same applies to those.
  • fbennett
    With {:publisher: Penguin} in the Extra field, the CSL style can read a variable "publisher" on the item. It's a valid CSL variable, so you should be able to add a call to it in the style, if it's not already there.

    The same is true for the publisher location, so you could put this in the Extra field:
    {:publisher: Penguin}{:publisher-place: New York}
    This is a temporary workaround, but it should be possible to convert this data when the proper field becomes available in Zotero.
  • camilomonteiro
    Mais uma vez, agradeço a atenção adamsmith.
    De fato, creio que o problema não deva ser tão simples de ser resolvido, caso contrário já o teriam feito.
    Então, não resta nenhuma saída aos usuários senão aguardar.
    Desejo que demore menos que os cinco anos da postagem geradora deste tópico.
  • fbennett
    edited November 4, 2014
    @adamsmith: Currently, the ABNT style adds the "note" variable to citations, presumably for this reason.

    Would you accept a patch that amends the style to use "publisher" and "publisher-place" instead when they are available? As it's currently set up, the ABNT style could only be made to work (sort of) correctly for Zotero users (and maybe Mendeley users), and that by abusing the Extra field in a way that is more reckless than the squiggly-bracket workaround.
  • adamsmith
    I'd have to look at what ABNT does exactly, but generally yes.
    @Frank - don't you need to enable the squiggly option in the hidden preferences?
  • fbennett
    No, I checked it the other day, and it's enabled by default.
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