Citing original date together edition date [1914] 2012. Is it possible?

cadudesun
Hi,

To old books it is common to write the citation as following:

(Weber, [1914] 2012)

Being 1914 the original date and 2012 the edition date.

Does the Zotero date field support this structure? How to insert the date? (I tried - [1914] 2012 - but Zotero just recognize the first date).

Thanks in advance,
Cadu
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  • fbennett
    The CSL language used to format citations has an "original-date" field, but Zotero does not (yet) have a way of storing that separate date information. When that arrives, styles will be able to produce these special dates correctly. Meanwhile, you'll need to use a workaround (some users put characters around the date pair -- like _[1914] 2012_ -- to force it to be rendered literally. The dates are then cleaned up manually in in a non-Zotero copy of the document before submission.
  • cadudesun
    edited April 16, 2012
    Thanks for information!
    By the way, do you know whether it is a feature that has chance to be implement in CSL style soon?
  • cadudesun
    edited April 21, 2012
    Hi,

    Even using the follows structure in Zotero field date, when citing in Word it is considered just 1914 (without any of the others marks or date).

    _[1914] 2012_

    When I hover over the mouse on the date field (Zotero interface) it appears: 1914-00-00. So, it seems I couldn't force Zotero to store the pattern _[1914] 2012_

    Is there something I am missing or making wrong?

    Thanks!
  • fbennett
    Indeed, that doesn't work, does it. Try using quotes instead of underline characters.
  • cadudesun
    "[1914] 2012"
    "1914 2012"

    None of these worked. Always 1914 is recognized, cited and referenced.

    Is it expected that "[1914] 2012" will be cited and referenced in Word document? Or should it just remain as a register inside Zotero date field?

    Thanks!
  • fbennett
    Sorry for the confusion; I should have inspected the issue more carefully. The processor change that fixed this happened very recently (citeproc-js 1.0.305, released exactly a month ago on March 21st), and it hasn't yet been released in the main Zotero version. It will be, but please wait for it to appear.
  • kyle.mcauley
    Hi there,

    Has any progress been made on this front? In general, it would be great to be able to cite both original dates -- using the brackets -- and edition dates, using a slash. Example:

    1956/1972 (1st edition 1956; current, cited edition 1972)
    2012 [1914] (cited edition 2012; originally written in 1914)

    It would be great to hear if anything has been done on this front.

    Thanks!
  • fbennett
    It will take some more time. To clarify my comments in the thread above, there are three layers to date processing:

    (1) The site translators take (sometimes messy) human-readable dates listed in target pages and convert them to an orderly internal form in the Zotero database. This is the "internal representation".

    (2) When inserting citations, Zotero transforms the internal representation into a different form and sends it to the citation processor. This is the "citation processor representation".

    (3) The citation processor takes the data it receives and transforms it into a human-readable citation. This is the "human readable form".

    The citation processor representation allows for a literal string form of the date (i.e. a form that is not transformed according to the style). This provides a way of coping with requirements like those illustrated in your examples, that are not yet fully supported in the Zotero data model.

    Literal strings in the citation processor representation depend on receiving data in that form from Zotero. For that to happen, two things are necessary:

    (a) The "internal representation" in Zotero needs to allow the storage of literal strings (which it does do); and

    (b) Zotero needs to send the literal-string data to the citation processor in an appropriate form when required (I'm not sure about this one).

    Possibly we have all the necessary pieces in place, and only need a small tweak or two to get Z and the processor to speak to one another smoothly. If more than a tweak or two are required, this may have to wait for a revamp of date handling, which seems likely to happen in the coming year.

    Dan or Simon may have comments.
  • kyle.mcauley
    Thanks so much for your detailed response. It's helpful to have a window into how data flow works in Zotero.

    In my experience, target pages tend not to list what we might call "secondary dates" (either edition dates or original publication dates) in a reliable fashion. For instance, importing this edition -- http://books.google.com/books?id=EFi2RVvX3wsC&lpg=PP1&dq=the%20great%20gatsby&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false -- of The Great Gasby from Google Books into Zotero results in the date reading 2011-10-11, when in fact the book was published in 1925. Zotero *is* correctly picking up the date listed -- it's just the date of the current edition, not the date of original publication. The "secondary dates" are something that I think the individual user would just have to key in manually, at least at this juncture.

    Thanks again for your detailed reply!
  • JonEP
    Just to give newcomers a bit of context, this is a request that was made a long time ago.

    Here are links to earlier iterations of the discussion:

    http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/8239/multiple-dates-for-published-and-republished

    http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/3673/original-date-of-publication/

    Some day, it will be great to enter the original date in a new data field in Zotero, and then have it appear in in-line citations, footnotes, and bibliographies. Some day!
  • DWL-SDCA
    edited May 25, 2012
    As an aside, an original date will be useful for reprints of "classic" journal articles when in a different contemporary journal.
  • DonnaCoxBaker
    It's inelegant, but here's what I'm doing. The field will accept a single long string, so long as there are no spaces or punctuation. I'm using "yyy1650zzz1833" to mean originally published in 1650, but using the 1833 edition. Since I'm unlikely to be using "yyy" or "zzz" anywhere in my dissertation, I can in the end replace the "yyy" occurrences with "(" and the "zzz" occurrences with ") " to yield "(1650) 1833", as CMOS requires. I dread the clean up of my Zotero data when the new field is created, but at least it will get the job done for now.
  • simon50000
    Thanks DonnaCoxBaker, that is helpful.

    Another way of hacking in a workaround is to tag all of Zotero entries that have more than one date, and then prior to publication go through and manually change all the entries.

    Hardly ideal, given that we're meant to be saving ourselves this job, but it does have the advantage of not reducing the date in Zotero to 0000 which happens with the long string method of Donna's. (If you use the timeline much for organising stuff this might be factor).
  • bgeer
    Could we please have this feature? It's a must-have for humanities scholars. I just want to be able to enter free-form text in the date field (including things like "April-June 1935") and have it kept as-is.
  • papiermachine
    +1 for this feature request. For historians (and not only for them, I hope), Kant (1972) is just horrible... Or: There was a renewed interest in nationalism studies in the early 1980s, following the publication of Anderson (2006)., etc.
    This shouldn't be so hard, given all the incredible work that went into Zotero...
  • adamsmith
    no need to double-post: https://forums.zotero.org/discussion/3673/2/original-date-of-publication/#Item_19
  • hgilbert
    Yes, this is a real need!
  • JohnDoe5638
    Ditto - this feature is crucial
  • hgilbert
    edited March 12, 2014
    I have developed my own workaround -- a Zotero CSL stylesheet that expands APA 6th edition format to recognize the location in archive field as the year of original publication. (This field is rarely, if ever, used by the standard citation engines, as far as I can tell.)

    Both the in-line citation and the bibliography are properly formatted to include original date of publication.

    If anyone wants to use this CSL stylesheet, you can find it at:
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0rMtYOElLfcS3gxT0ZQbDR5cHc/edit?usp=sharing
    Once downloaded, you would need to drag the file onto an open Firefox window to install it as a Zotero style. Then, when the Zotero Word Plug-in asks what style citations to use, select "American Psychological Association 6th edition with original date of publication".

    Of course, if you don't use APA, this is not much help, though perhaps it will inspire others to do the same for other formats. (I generated it using the Visual CSL Editor.)
  • adamsmith
    you should delete:
    <macro name="Original date">
    <choose>
    <if match="any" variable="archive_location">
    <text variable="archive_location" prefix="(Original work published in " suffix=")"/>
    </if>
    </choose>
    </macro>

    you're not actually using that anywhere (you use the archive location field directly further down) and it's not valid CSL - if you do want to use a macro, don't include a space in the name, i.e. use something like
    <macro name="original-date">

    This is not super-likely to break anything, but technically only validating styles are guaranteed to work with Zotero.
  • adamsmith
    (also - for historians and humanities scholars: the loc. in archive field _is_ used in all Chicago Manual styles, so this particular workaround won't do if you want to use Chicago style).
  • hgilbert
    Thanks, Adam; I've deleted the unused macro. As you say, it's better to keep the code clean, even though in this case it should have no effect.

    We're looking forward to the non-workaround version!
  • joycerobbins
    edited March 18, 2014
    Here's my imperfect workaround: I add the original publication date to the author's first name, such as: Max. [1905]

    When I export using author-date format, it's almost correct:

    Weber, Max. [1905]. 2002. _The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism_. Los Angeles, CA: Roxbury.

    At the end I do a global replace, changing "]." to "]" which of course removes the extra period for all bibliographic entries exported this way.
  • hgilbert
    That would work as long as there are not multiple books by the same author--these would trigger strange behavior in the citations, I would guess.
  • joycerobbins
    Good point. Other than not recognizing that the multiple authors are really the same author for purposes of using a line instead of the full name in the bibliography, I can't think of how else this would interfere with citations. Let me know though if I'm missing something here.
  • koperski
    2016 and still hoping for this feature.
  • bwiernik
    You can currently get original dates to work in Zotero by putting them in the Extra field with the following format:

    {:original-date: 1864}

    This will render the date of the chosen style supports it (the major ones--APA, Chicago, etc.--all do).
  • koperski
    Aha! That works. Thanks!
  • JohnDoe5638
    Hurrah!

    Thanks bwiernik - finally an easy solution that works !

    Very happy about this
  • LiborA
    Are another tips like {:original-date: 1864}? Where you find it?
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