Bibliography order issues

I know this has been brought up before so please don't penalise me for posting the question again. I just can't find any answers in the forums.

I have a document that has the following problems.
For citations from a single author from different dates, the bibliography has put the references in weird orders i.e. it has a reference from 2006 before 2002. While two papers by the same author from the same year are out of order.

So it goes
1996, 2006, 2002b, 2002a

Is there an easy way to make changes that don't involve coding? Because quite frankly it's not as easy for the computer illiterate person as some people might think.

I'm sorry if I'm sounding condescending but I'm getting frustrated struggling to find an answer to my problem.

I'm using word 2010, most updated zotero if this helps.

Thanks
  • Which citation style are you using?
  • Cell citation style.
  • Do you by any chance have a link to where Cell specifies the citation requirements? Their documentation at http://www.cell.com/authors#sections is extremely vague.

    Furthermore, looking at http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674(12)01546-2 (open access), the sorting appears somewhat ambiguous.

    E.g.
    Gilbert, W. (1986). Origin of life: the RNA world. Nature 319, 618.
    Gilbert, S.D., Rambo, R.P., Van Tyne, D., and Batey, R.T. (2008). Structure of
    the SAM-II riboswitch bound to S-adenosylmethionine. Nat. Struct. Mol. Biol.
    15, 177–182.
    probably means single author before multiple (or ignore first name)

    Huang, L., Serganov, A., and Patel, D.J. (2010). Structural insights into ligand
    recognition by a sensing domain of the cooperative glycine riboswitch. Mol.
    Cell 40, 774–786.
    Huang, L., Ishibe-Murakami, S., Patel, D.J., and Serganov, A. (2011). Longrange
    pseudoknot interactions dictate the regulatory response in the tetrahydrofolate
    riboswitch. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 108, 14801–14806.
    suggests sorting by first author then year (second author would be out of order)

    Lee, E.-J., and Groisman, E.A. (2012). Control of a Salmonella virulence locus
    by an ATP-sensing leader messenger RNA. Nature 486, 271–275.
    Lee, E.R., Baker, J.L., Weinberg, Z., Sudarsan, N., and Breaker, R.R. (2010). An
    allosteric self-splicing ribozyme triggered by a bacterial second messenger.
    Science 329, 845–848.
    suggests that either two authors come before multiple authors or that first names matter.

    I'll look around some more, but more guidance from Cell would be helpful
  • Thanks for your help,

    Cell was the option I chose because it more closely resembled what I am after. however changing the style doesnt necessarily change the bibliography either. I guess I should have made that more clear.

    I'm not sure why, but it does seem to be a recurring problem, and I have noted it before in the forums but I can't find a link
  • I see.
    however changing the style doesnt necessarily change the bibliography either.
    I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "does not necessarily". Does it change some times but not others or does it not change your bibliography at all?? If your bibliography does not change after changing styles, try deleting and re-inserting it. Make sure you delete the entire bibliography (select the bibliography plus a line before and a line after if you can).

    Since I did start picking at the Cell style already, I'll hijack your thread and finish up.

    From http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674(12)01428-6
    Bouvier, T., and Maurice, C.F. (2011). A single-cell analysis of virioplankton
    adsorption, infection, and intracellular abundance in different bacterioplankton
    physiologic categories. Microb. Ecol. 62, 669–678.
    Bouvier, T., Del Giorgio, P.A., and Gasol, J.M. (2007). A comparative study of
    the cytometric characteristics of high and low nucleic-acid bacterioplankton
    cells from different aquatic ecosystems. Environ. Microbiol. 9, 2050–2066.
    Two authors do appear to come before 3+

    from http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674(12)01126-9
    Schmidt, A., Beck, M., Malmstro¨ m, J., Lam, H., Claassen, M., Campbell, D.,
    and Aebersold, R. (2011). Absolute quantification of microbial proteomes at
    different states by directed mass spectrometry. Mol. Syst. Biol. 7, 510.
    Schmidt, M.W., Houseman, A., Ivanov, A.R., and Wolf, D.A. (2007). Comparative
    proteomic and transcriptomic profiling of the fission yeast Schizosaccharomyces
    pombe. Mol. Syst. Biol. 3, 79.
    suggests that first names do matter. Also saw this with two author citations in http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674(12)00508-9 (see Li)

    on the other hand (from http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674(12)00769-6 )
    Gu, W., Shirayama, M., Conte, D., Jr., Vasale, J., Batista, P.J., Claycomb, J.M.,
    Moresco, J.J., Youngman, E.M., Keys, J., Stoltz, M.J., et al. (2009). Distinct
    argonaute-mediated 22G-RNA pathways direct genome surveillance in the
    C. elegans germline. Mol. Cell 36, 231–244.
    Gu, S.G., Pak, J., Guang, S., Maniar, J.M., Kennedy, S., and Fire, A. (2012).
    Amplification of siRNA in Caenorhabditis elegans generates a transgenerational
    sequence-targeted histone H3 lysine 9 methylation footprint. Nat. Genet.
    44, 157–164.
    says otherwise. I suspect that this is a mistake.

    from http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674(12)00936-1
    Nasmyth, K. (2011). Cohesin: a catenase with separate entry and exit gates?
    Nat. Cell Biol. 13, 1170–1177.
    Nasmyth, K., and Schleiffer, A. (2004). From a single double helix to paired
    double helices and back. Philos. Trans. R. Soc. Lond. B Biol. Sci. 359, 99–108.
    Single author before 2 authors

    from http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674(12)00508-9
    Crow, Y.J., Leitch, A., Hayward, B.E., Garner, A., Parmar, R., Griffith, E., Ali, M.,
    Semple, C., Aicardi, J., Babul-Hirji, R., et al. (2006a). Mutations in genes
    encoding ribonuclease H2 subunits cause Aicardi-Goutie` res syndrome and
    mimic congenital viral brain infection. Nat. Genet. 38, 910–916.
    Crow, Y.J., Hayward, B.E., Parmar, R., Robins, P., Leitch, A., Ali, M., Black,
    D.N., van Bokhoven, H., Brunner, H.G., Hamel, B.C., et al. (2006b). Mutations
    in the gene encoding the 30-50 DNA exonuclease TREX1 cause Aicardi-Goutie`
    res syndrome at the AGS1 locus. Nat. Genet. 38, 917–920.
    suggests that citations with same first author and year are either sorted by the order in text or by title. Some other citations confirm that it is location in text.

    There seems to have been a change in sorting somewhere between 2011 and 2012 (looks like some time after May 11, 2012), since looking back at an article from 2011 ( http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674(11)01288-8 ), I see
    Antonin, W., Fasshauer, D., Becker, S., Jahn, R., and Schneider, T.R. (2002).
    Crystal structure of the endosomal SNARE complex reveals common structural
    principles of all SNAREs. Nat. Struct. Biol. 9, 107–111.
    Antonin, W., Holroyd, C., Tikkanen, R., Honing, S., and Jahn, R. (2000). The RSNARE
    endobrevin/VAMP-8 mediates homotypic fusion of early endosomes
    and late endosomes. Mol. Biol. Cell 11, 3289–3298.
    and
    Pryor, P.R., Jackson, L., Gray, S.R., Edeling, M.A., Thompson, A., Sanderson,
    C.M., Evans, P.R., Owen, D.J., and Luzio, J.P. (2008). Molecular basis for the
    sorting of the SNARE VAMP7 into endocytic clathrin-coated vesicles by the
    ArfGAP Hrb. Cell 134, 817–827.
    Pryor, P.R., Mullock, B.M., Bright, N.A., Lindsay, M.R., Gray, S.R., Richardson,
    S.C., Stewart, A., James, D.E., Piper, R.C., and Luzio, J.P. (2004). Combinatorial
    SNARE complexes with VAMP7 or VAMP8 define different late endocytic
    fusion events. EMBO Rep. 5, 590–595.

    i.e. second author has higher precedence than year.

    @adamsmith, this would probably be a quick fix for you. Let me know if you don't have time. I'll give it a shot.
  • edited January 22, 2013
    Thanks again

    Okay so I think i've confused you, the issue persists, no matter the style.
    I have resorted in the past to actually changing the dates manually by adding a letter to the end such that they are presented in order eg 2000a, 2000b

    But for what ever reason it still insists on presenting dates out of order or just plain backwards. Another example I have is I have three papers from the same author and go

    Fevold 1933, Fevold 1932, Fevold 1930

    They are all part or one citation and are presented correctly when cited, but the bibliography is backward. All the time. Regardless of style?

    Thanks for your help, but I'm starting to think that this is not an easy fix....even endnote seems to have issues with exported files from zotero...but that's a whole other issue not related to this
  • Thanks for all of your help thus far. I appreciate it a great deal :)
  • edited January 22, 2013
    Make sure that what you say is the same author is actually entered exactly the same way in Zotero.
    Smith, Adam is not the same as Smith, A., which is not the same as Smith, A (note the period)

    At least in Cell, I can see that there is currently an issue with sorting. I cannot say the same about other styles. Try Journal of Molecular Endocrinology style, which I think sorts the way you want (at least it did last time I used it).

    Edit: Also note that often single author papers are sorted before two author papers, which are sorted before three and more author papers.
  • edited January 22, 2013
    Thanks, okay so all of the problems with ordering stems from the rules set in place by the particular journal in question.

    For instance, using the Journal of Molecular Endocrinology certainly went a long way to fixing some of the problems. However some problems persist such as your previous comment "Edit: Also note that often single author papers are sorted before two author papers, which are sorted before three and more author papers."

    But its a start and it has made it work much much better.
    I'll have to scourer the nets to find one that suits me.
    I went here for the styles http://www.zotero.org/styles

    Do you know of a page that has user styles by any chance?

    Cheers!
  • edited January 22, 2013
    I'm not aware of a page that lists user-created styles (i.e. not associated with official publications). Many of the styles at http://www.zotero.org/styles are contributed by the users, but I don't think that's what you meant.

    What problems are you still experiencing. Maybe it's a bug in the style, which we could fix.

    Edit: sorry, didn't read carefully enough. Regarding the sorting of single, two, and multiple author papers, That more or less makes sense though (I understand that you might not like it however). This corresponds to the in-text citations, which are either (Smith 2000) (Smith and Jones 2000) or (Smith et al 2000). So just by looking at the in-text citations you would expect Smith to appear before Smith and Jones and that before Smith et al. You might have a hard time finding a journal where this is not the case. Perhaps @adamsmith knows of one off hand.
  • edited January 22, 2013
    Exactly, I think its like you said before and above, that papers that have a single author vs a paper with multiple authors gets sorted first. Regardless of the date it was published

    This is an example directly from the biblography

    Fevold HL 1933 The chemical nature of the ovarian and the gonadotropic hormones. Journal of Chemical Education 10 174.

    Fevold HL, Hisaw FL & Meyer RK 1930 The relaxative hormone of the corpus luteum. its purification and concentration. Journal of the American Chemical Society 52 3340–3348.

    Fevold HL, Hisaw FL & Leonard SL 1932 Hormones of the corpus luteum. the separation and purification of three active substances. Journal of the American Chemical Society 54 254–263.

    last time with the previous style it went 1933, 1932, 1930.

    The order it has now is precisely how you described it earlier. Just the rules defined by the journal.

    So I figure there has to be a compatible journal for what I am after that does the citations and the bibliographic sorting I wish to have.
  • no, there is currently no style that sorts according to the first author, then the date. For the reasons given by Aurimas above I'd find that an odd requirement, too. Why would you want that?
    (it's possible in CSL/Zotero, though, with relatively little trouble).
  • edited January 22, 2013
    TBH I didn't think this was a strange request. I figured in terms of referencing for the reader it would be easier to find the reference by author then find it by date, regardless of the number of authors (1, 2, 3 and so on). And since it zotero has user developed styles I didn't think it was impossible...but it doesn't matter, the format that Aurimas recommended is working fine now. Fewer problems than before.

    Thanks with all of the help :)
  • It's not impossible. In fact what adamsmith meant by
    (it's possible in CSL/Zotero, though, with relatively little trouble).
    Is that you can modify the style yourself to get it to behave the way you want it to.
    In JoME style, if you replace

    <bibliography hanging-indent="true">
    <sort>
    <key macro="author-short" names-min="1" names-use-first="1"/>
    <key macro="author-count" names-min="3" names-use-first="3"/>
    <key macro="author-short" names-min="3" names-use-first="1"/>
    <key macro="year-issued"/>
    </sort>

    with

    <bibliography hanging-indent="true">
    <sort>
    <key macro="author-short" names-min="1" names-use-first="1"/>
    <key macro="year-issued"/>
    <key variable="title"/>
    </sort>

    It should sort the way you want.

    See http://www.zotero.org/support/dev/citation_styles/style_editing_step-by-step for more help with editing styles.
  • This has done the trick!

    Thanks to both of you. It now does the sorting I am after.
    Cheers!
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