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- CommentAuthordigitig
- CommentTimeFeb 26th 2008
References to these must show title, institution, date and issue number (edition, if you like). I can't see a document type that gives me these fields. Or is it possible to create new document types? -
- CommentAuthornoksagt
- CommentTimeFeb 26th 2008
Click the 'new item' button, select 'more->report'. Does it lack any field that you need? -
- CommentAuthordigitig
- CommentTimeFeb 26th 2008
Yes, as far as I can see it lacks an issue number (or edition) field. -
- CommentAuthorerazlogo
- CommentTimeFeb 26th 2008
there is a report number field -
- CommentAuthordigitig
- CommentTimeFeb 26th 2008
Yes, but the report number is presumably a reference number, not an issue number. Anyway, I need both, and it can't be both.
Look for example at the document "ESARR 3 Guidance to ATM Safety Regulators : Explanatory Material on ESARR 3 Requirements" at http://www.eurocontrol.int/src/public/standard_page/esarr3.html. The document number is "EAM 3/GUI 1" and the issue number (shown in the document as "edition") is "1.0". The issue number isn't necessarily purely numeric, by the way .
Another problem with the "report" document type is that zotero doesn't seem to have any mapping for the "institution" field (at least, http://dev.zotero.org/csl_syntax_summary doesn't show one), so I can't include it in a reference. In the example above I could kludge it by putting the institution in the "author" field, but if I need to reference a technical paper by author /and/ institution -- common in engineering -- then I'd be out of luck. -
- CommentAuthorerazlogo
- CommentTimeFeb 26th 2008 edited
Look for example at the document "ESARR 3 Guidance to ATM Safety Regulators : Explanatory Material on ESARR 3 Requirements" at http://www.eurocontrol.int/src/public/standard_page/esarr3.html
Can you post the formatted reference for this source on this forum? I'm not sure what kind of formatting you hope to accomplish here.Another problem with the "report" document type is that zotero doesn't seem to have any mapping for the "institution" field
Report's "institution" is mapped to "publisher" in Zotero here (see line 830): https://www.zotero.org/trac/browser/extension/branches/1.0/system.sql -
- CommentAuthordigitig
- CommentTimeFeb 26th 2008
"ESARR 3 Guidance to ATM Safety Regulators. EUROCONTROL, Document EAM 3/GUI 1, Issue 1.0, 1st June 2001"
I think the issue number field would have to include the whole text "Issue 1.0", because I might have to refer to a draft, such as "Draft 1.2". -
- CommentAuthorerazlogo
- CommentTimeFeb 26th 2008 edited
For the moment, I would put both the document number and the issue number in the Report Number field, separated by a comma--that will still work for your citation formatting example. It may be possible to add another field to Reports down the line (in FF3-compatible Zotero)--would "edition" or "version" be more appropriate? -
- CommentAuthordigitig
- CommentTimeFeb 26th 2008
I call it "version", but I'm not the entire community :-) EUROCONTROL uses "edition", probably because it's closer to the French... -
- CommentAuthorandre
- CommentTimeMay 12th 2008
I am unable to find any zotero format that correctly handles technical report entries. This is a pretty important class of documents. Most of mine are imported from bibtex and look a bit like these:
http://www.cerfacs.fr/algor/reports/algo_reports_1994.html
from which I'd like to see a bibliography entry that is some style based variation of
"M. Bennani and T. Braconnier. Comparative behaviour of eigensolvers on highly nonnormal matrices. Technical Report TR/PA/94/23, CERFACS, Toulouse, France, 1994."
(which was generated by running the first entry on the quoted web page through bibtex2html.)
Importing into zotero then generating a bibliography entry returns:
"M.~Bennani & T.~Braconnier, 1994. Comparative behaviour of eigensolvers on highly nonnormal matrices, Available at: http://www.cerfacs.fr/algor/reports/1994/TR_PA_94_23.ps.gz."
Which might be all right for a web page but sucks if you are trying to write a serious paper. Can anyone give me a hint how I might fix this so I don't have to go in an edit my bibliographies manually?
Thanks -
- CommentAuthorbdarcus
- CommentTimeMay 12th 2008
Identify the style you need modified. -
- CommentAuthorandre
- CommentTimeMay 12th 2008 edited
IEEE would do the job as I am mostly doing technical writing and I notice the harvard style (the other I would typically tdurn to for author-date citation) doesn't make explicit mention of technical reports (its bibtex implementation does).
I noted in this thread http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/536/7/what-other-citation-formats-would-you-like-zotero-to-generate/#Item_5 that the required formating is described on page 7 of the IEEE style manual.
I should mention that part of the problem appears to be the failure of zotero's bibtex import to transfer the "institution" field; however the bibliographic entry doesn't include it even when entered manually.
Thanks -
- CommentAuthorandre
- CommentTimeMay 15th 2008
I finally worked out how to hack the csl files... Here is a patch for the ieee style that reports the details of technical reports (and some other small mods). The base style is fairly simplistic so I can't guarantee there will not be cases where it misbehaves... but for me it seems good. This patch includes in the bibliography (sorry whitespace seems to be removed in post):
1. report type and number
2. month (short form) as well as year for book and chapter types
3. only includes the URL if the type is webpage
--- ieee-modified.csl Fri May 16 13:32:11 2008
***************
*** 47,53 ****
--- 47,56 ----
<macro name="publisher">
<text variable="publisher-place" suffix=": " prefix=" "/>
<text variable="publisher" suffix=", "/>
+ <text variable="genre" prefix="" form="short"/>
+ <text variable="number" prefix=" " suffix=", " form="short"/>
<date variable="issued">
+ <date-part name="month" suffix=". " form="short"/>
<date-part name="year"/>
</date>
</macro>
***************
*** 105,111 ****
</group>
</else>
</choose>
! <text macro="access" prefix="; "/>
</layout>
</bibliography>
</style>
--- 108,118 ----
</group>
</else>
</choose>
! <choose>
! <if type="webpage">
! <text macro="access" prefix="; "/>
! </if>
! </choose>
</layout>
</bibliography>
</style> -
- CommentAuthorandre
- CommentTimeMay 16th 2008
Oh... and the following lines also prevent extra spacing between entries:
<option name="et-al-min" value="4"/>
<option name="et-al-use-first" value="1"/>
<option name="second-field-align" value="true"/>
+ <option name="entry-spacing" value="0"/>
+ <option name="line-spacing" value="1"/>
<layout suffix=".">
<text variable="citation-number" prefix="[" suffix="]"/>
<text macro="author" prefix=" " suffix=", "/>
Now its starting to work for me :-) -
- CommentAuthorbdarcus
- CommentTimeMay 16th 2008 edited
Looks good, except for the 'webpage' conditional. If I cite a report or an article that's published at a URL, are you saying that IEEE does not want that URL?
Also, what happens if you remove that 'entry-spacing' option altogether? -
- CommentAuthorandre
- CommentTimeMay 16th 2008
The handling of URL's is the weakest bit I think. To be honest I'm not sure what is best to do here. But I do think that the traditional citation details are preferable for a printed form and that the URL should only appear when its needed. By default it is included too often for me. The problem is that URL's change from time to time, unless they contain unreadble database keys. I also use "internal" URLs in my bibtex for some documents and I don't want these stray URLs creeping into my bibliographies.
If you remove the entry-spacing option altogether the bibliography generated by the word plugin has a blank line between each entry. It makes for an ugly bibliography. I found discussion of this in another thread. -
- CommentAuthorandre
- CommentTimeMay 16th 2008
BTW the IEEE style manual does explicitly talk about online sources from page 10.
"C. On-Line Sources
The guidelines for citing electronic information as offered here are in modified illustration of the adaptation by the International Standards Organization (ISO) documentation system and the American Psychological Association style."
It might be possible to do something meaningful using substitutions in the CSL. Not for me at this time though I'm afraid. -
- CommentAuthorbdarcus
- CommentTimeMay 16th 2008 edited
The handling of URL's is the weakest bit I think. To be honest I'm not sure what is best to do here. But I do think that the traditional citation details are preferable for a printed form and that the URL should only appear when its needed. By default it is included too often for me. The problem is that URL's change from time to time, unless they contain unreadble database keys. I also use "internal" URLs in my bibtex for some documents and I don't want these stray URLs creeping into my bibliographies.
But just keep in mind the big picture here. Before very long, almost ALL cited documents will be web documents. So it seems rather anachronistic to be pretending that there's something special called a "webpage."If you remove the entry-spacing option altogether the bibliography generated by the word plugin has a blank line between each entry. It makes for an ugly bibliography.
Yes, and I'd call that a bug. Zotero should NOT be inserting an extra space, and we probably ought to settle on what the default spacing ought to be if the option isn't present. -
- CommentAuthorandre
- CommentTimeMay 17th 2008
for more discussion on the extra space see here http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/2252/
WRT every document being a web document I respectfully disagree... let me explain my perspective:
Just because a document is made available on the net doesn't make it a web document. What is far more important is who the publishers are as that indicates the review process, context (conference vs journal etc) and the research community in which it circulated first. If you google a title you will often find a handful of web locations for the same document, but only the publishers web address would be deemed appropriate for inclusion in a citation (unless you are specifically referring to a pre-print). As a result this is adding no new information. It is just like saying "Available in the printed transactions at your library". (Wo... starting to rant there... please excuse)
If there is no "formal" publisher then a web address (or in the bibtex world a "howpublished") becomes important. Alternatively, newspapers and such often maintain separate web versions that may be slightly different, making the distinction between printed and web versions important.
I am feeling old-fashioned making this case but I feel this distinction is real and important (and I'm a pedant). IMHO citations should not be verbose for the sake of it but neither should they be lazy. Universally employing a URL facilitates both these errors as
- if you include complete readable publisher info the URL is redundant
- if you can't be bothered collecting all the publisher info the URL is in some sense sufficient as you can find out the other information
Hope we can find some points of agreement. I'm so enjoying being able to finally bring some of the simplicity of latex/bibtex to word (in which I am forced to work). -
- CommentAuthorbdarcus
- CommentTimeMay 17th 2008
We can happily agree to disagree here. Let me give you a practical example on exactly this issue: reports.
If the UN publishes a report and it's available on the web (as it almost always is these days), then I think it bad form not to include the URL or (in an electronic document) a link to it.
The purpose of citation information, after all, is to make it easy to find things, and there's nothing easier nor more direct than a link directly to the source.
But even if I agree with you on this point, I guess I'd point out to you that you are explaining distinctions here not by type (webpage vs. journal article vs. book) but rather by the attribute/properties of those things: whether they have a publisher, for example.
And, BTW, I'm not saying "universally include" the URL; I'm saying include it if present, and that (as has been discussed here many times) Zotero needs to do a better job of distinguishing (more-or-less canonical) URLs from links. E.g. redundant citation data is more of a data than a styling problem. -
- CommentAuthorJulia Thornton
- CommentTimeMay 20th 2008
"The purpose of citation information, after all, is to make it easy to find things, and there's nothing easier nor more direct than a link directly to the source."
The purpose of citation IMHO is threefold,
1 to allow a future researcher to find the item
2 to acknowledge the work of the author or source
3 to provide legitimacy (via academic gate keeping - peer review, institutional legitimacy - etc) for any use you make of that author's work to provide verification for your own argumentative claims
There may be more but I can't think of them.
My point however is that all of these create slightly different but overlapping requirements of a citation instrument.
The argument above appears to stem from a difference of opinion over the relative emphasis to put on point 1 or point 3
JT
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