Bluebook law-review

aa

I have installed the latest version but there are many problems. eg. book citation: the author's name is not in small caps (should be), there is a colon : before the page number (should not be), in articles the journal name does not appear at all, the indention is not accroding to the bb style etc.
Any idea when an upfated version might be ready?

Also, a great addition would be an option of a short reference according to bb guidelines for additional references to a source after the first full reference.

thanks

bdarcus

I'll take a look at this later today, and fix the issues you noted.

For the record, I know the style is kind of weak. I just never had much time to work on it. But if you can itemize the improvements it needs such that I can add them without thought, that would help. For example, what should the form of subsequent reference be?

bdarcus

OK, I fixed your problems 1 and 2.

I'm not seeing your problem 3, and don't understand the indentation issue, nor exactly how to deal with the subsequent citations (right now it will just print the author). So I've mostly left these alone.

Feel to load it from the style repo and experiment. If you're adventurous, you can load it in csledit.xul and see if you can work out how to fix details on your own. If not, report them here. The more specific, the more likely I can help.

aa

okay, thank you. I will give you specific comments as I go along. Here are some things:

Citing an article out of a book has its own rules so should have an independent entry. The rules are: author, indented article name, [comma, not indented] in [indented]- book citation [small caps, like regular book citation] -page number for the article in the book, page number of specific reference in article - year.

Also, in books, if the publication date refers to a later edition, there should be an option of adding, in square brackets, after the whole citation, the year of original publication.

I will write separately about subsequent citations.
many thanks

bdarcus

Citing an article out of a book has its own rules so should have an independent entry. The rules are: author, indented article name, [comma, not indented] in [indented]- book citation [small caps, like regular book citation] -page number for the article in the book, page number of specific reference in article - year.

I have a copy of the Bluebook (that someone here kindly sent to me), and I'm not seeing this. The examples in the inside cover, for example, indicate a rather standard "In" and then the containing item is simply printed inline.

Can you point me to exactly where it explains this further?

Also, in books, if the publication date refers to a later edition, there should be an option of adding, in square brackets, after the whole citation, the year of original publication.

CSL supports this; but Zotero doesn't (ATM). So even I add it, it won't help you currently unfortunately.

aa

I will look up the bb and try to direct you.

Anyway, bigger trouble: I was using zotero citations in a word document (footnotes). Suddenly, all references to a specific article have gone mad- rather than the full citation and page references, only the author's name appears. All the specific page references in each footnote have disappeared - any idea what to do?

thanks

Cassandra2323

Life changing software-thanks!

A couple more changes needed for citing journal articles. Right now
(1) The year of publication is not in parens
(2) the page cite is the range of pages on which the article appears, as in most other fields. Bluebook wants the first page only
(3) A problem that may need to be directed to the main Zotero dept. Bluebook citation wants full author first names. My entries almost all have initials only, so there's nothing for the bluebook coding to work with. I am almost sure the original source (usually Google Scholar) had full names available. Is there a preference I can set to get full names, or does this need to be fixed in Zotero?

Many many thanks!

sean

Glad to hear that you're liking Zotero. Items 1&2 can definitely be handled by CSL, but there's not much we can do about item 3. If you import data that only contains first initials – and that's certainly going to be the case at Google Scholar – Zotero can't guess what those names might be. You might pester Google to find out why they don't offer full names.

Cassandra2323

One more date issue. Bluebook journal date cites are year only. At present Zotero puts the month in also where it's available ie June 1998 rather than (1998)

Thanks!

mmazzotta

I've downloaded Bluebook law review, but it doesn't seem to be working with Westlaw. Am I correct that Westlaw is not a supported database? Also, is there any way to get Zotero to do citations in legal format (in parens after a sentence instead of in footnotes or endnotes)?

Cassandra2323

Just wondering if there is any chance of having these changes made fairly soon. They would REALLY help me., I'd be happy to help in any way I can, either with these or with some other aspect of bluebooking or legal research

bdarcus

Isis -- I just checked in a change for your date issues, but have not had time to test it. Can you do that and let me know.

CSL actually does not (yet) have support for first page. I'll look into adding that.

Cassandra2323

What do I download--just reinstall the whole bluebook style?

nas

I used to do user support and education for Endnote, Procite, and Refworks, so it's awesome to be using Zotero, where things actually work in easy ways. Unfortunately, editing citation styles is one thing that seems to be a lot harder in Zotero than in those other products. I'd love to help with improving the Bluebook style, but I just don't quite have the programming chops.

The thing I would most appreciate seeing changed with the Bluebook style is references to already-cited items. Right now, I'm getting Ibids (which Bluebook doesn't use at all) or references by author lastname (which is incorrect for Bluebook.) When referring to the same source as an immediately-preceding citation, Bluebook uses "Id." in italics, then (if it's a different page than the previous citation) the word "at", then the page number.

I'd also love to see another attempt at case citations - right now I'm getting multiple appearances of the case names, an extra comma after the reporter name, and sometimes an extra space before the year. Also, correct citation for courts other than the US Supreme Court includes the court name before the year - but that would involve a complicated test to figure out what court and the right abbreviation, which is why (I think) none of the other citation software has attempted a Bluebook style. This stuff is just too darned arcane.

dstillman

What do I download--just reinstall the whole bluebook style?

Yes.

Cassandra2323

Now the dates don't show up at all. Also, there should be no comma between the journal name and page numbers

THANKS!

bdarcus

Oops, sorry about that Isis. Try again; it should work now.

nas:

Unfortunately, editing citation styles is one thing that seems to be a lot harder in Zotero than in those other products.

That's only because there really isn't a UI ... yet. Once that problem's solved, I think you'll find it a lot easier actually.

The thing I would most appreciate seeing changed with the Bluebook style is references to already-cited items. Right now, I'm getting Ibids (which Bluebook doesn't use at all) or references by author lastname (which is incorrect for Bluebook.) When referring to the same source as an immediately-preceding citation, Bluebook uses "Id." in italics, then (if it's a different page than the previous citation) the word "at", then the page number.

So you're saying a) BB does use ibid, but just use a different term for it, and b) the current BB style gives you ibid substitutions? That'd be odd, since the current style has no ibid rules in it.

I'd also love to see another attempt at case citations - right now I'm getting multiple appearances of the case names, an extra comma after the reporter name, and sometimes an extra space before the year.

OK, I *am* seeing the multiple titles. I'll check on that. I'm not seeing the extra commas, so it'd be good if you can try to identify the circumstances under which that occurs.

Also, correct citation for courts other than the US Supreme Court includes the court name before the year - but that would involve a complicated test to figure out what court and the right abbreviation, which is why (I think) none of the other citation software has attempted a Bluebook style. This stuff is just too darned arcane.

:-)

bdarcus

OK, duplicate title problem is solved.

How is the title supposed to be formatted? In any case, I may be running into a bug there with Zotero; will check it on more later.

nas

bdarcus:
Thanks for your efforts! I'm still seeing two titles when I cite to a case, and the extra comma that I'm seeing comes between the reporter name and the first page number - here's a sample:
ABKCO Music, Inc. v. Harrisongs Music, Ltd., ABKCO Music, Inc. v. Harrisongs Music, Ltd., 722 F.2d, 988 (1982)
Should be:
ABKCO Music, Inc. v. Harrisongs Music, Ltd., 722 F.2d 988 (2d Cir. 1982).
If I were citing to a specific page within the opinion, then there would be a comma, as in:
ABKCO Music, Inc. v. Harrisongs Music, Ltd., 722 F.2d 988, 990-91 (2d Cir. 1982).

So you're saying a) BB does use ibid, but just use a different term for it, and b) the current BB style gives you ibid substitutions? That'd be odd, since the current style has no ibid rules in it.

a) BB uses "Id." to refer to something citing in the immediately preceding citation (but only if it was the only thing in the immediately preceding citation).
So a repeat of the Harrisongs case citation might look like:
Id.
or
Id. at 995

Later-cited instances of previously cited works get arcane again
Cases should invoke the name and reporter, but not in as much detail as before:
ABKCO v. Harrisongs, 722 F.2d at 995.
But if you're using footnotes, non-primary authorities can use the "supra" indicator (which is actually heavily used by legal writers, because goodness knows whether you'll get the latter citation right, so you might as well just stick with the first one, and hope that was close to correct). But anyway, you get a lot of cites like:
(authorname), supra note (# of original citation) at (new pages cited).

Arcane, as I said. I'm a librarian, and I think this citation system is out of control.

b) the current BB style is giving me just the author name for previously cited works - not even showing specific page numbers if I enter those. Some style that I used in an older paper was showing me Ibids, but I don't think that was BB.

Cassandra2323

(1) The dates look great-thanks!

(2) still need to eliminate the comma between the journal name and the page cite. Now reads

44 Stanford Law Review, 1583-1614

Should read

44 Stanford Law Review 1583-1614

(also only initial page needed but I know you are working on that)

Cassandra2323

As to the supra /id problem, I suspect that that is not a problem that can be handled until the final draft of an article, brief, whatever. It is a wretchedly stupid system. One of the many problems it presents is that often as you are editing, what was once the first occurrence of a cite moves to later and an initially later cite moves up to first place. I suspect that the best way to deal with this would be a macro or something that you wouldn't run until the very end. In any event that is how I always do it when working the old fashioned way. But if it is possible to have immediate updates, my hat's off to the programmer.

Cassandra2323

One more petty thing. Journal title citations should drop any "the" at the beginning, ie "Journal of Political Economy" not "The Journal of Political Economy". Zotero has been scraping "The" for some journals. I can just drop these by hand in the database entry but I do sometimes use non-bluebook citation formats. Do other formats use the "The"?

erazlogo

One more petty thing. Journal title citations should drop any "the" at the beginning, ie "Journal of Political Economy" not "The Journal of Political Economy". Zotero has been scraping "The" for some journals. I can just drop these by hand in the database entry but I do sometimes use non-bluebook citation formats. Do other formats use the "The"?

Many of them don't. There is a ticket for this--see the discussion attached to the ticket for possible solutions.

bdarcus

Isis, the comma thing is fixed. For reference, I just removed the comma in the prefix here:

<text variable="page" prefix=", "/>


On one of your other points, CSL has support for first/subsequent distinctions, and ibid handling. It's all automated. But we've not across a style that uses anything but "ibid" so I'll have to look into this.

BTW, CSL does not support rules like op. cit., and it never will. They serve no useful purpose for anyone, and there's only so much insanity I'm willing to support ;-)

nas

BTW, CSL does not support rules like op. cit., and it never will. They serve no useful purpose for anyone, and there's only so much insanity I'm willing to support ;-)

Totally with you on this. Sadly, who knows what it will take to convince the hordes of anal-retentive student editors trained in the law review system. Over 22 years ago, Richard Posner, an incredibly influential judge on the 7th Circuit court of appeals, published an essay tearing into the Bluebook style, but the Bluebook is still the dominant format. (Choice quote: "The vacuity and tendentiousness of so much legal reasoning are concealed by the awesome scrupulousness with which a set of intricate rules governing the form of citations is observed.")

Cassandra2323

The comma fix works--thanks!!

Amd FWIW. as bad as bluebooking is, it was a lot worse 25 years ago. The current system IS somewhat simplified!!!

I will be ECSTATIC if you can handle the supra garbage. I think that the biggest additional problem raised by bluebook over other styles is that after the first cite, subsequent cites have to refer to the footnote number of the first cite. So if an article X is first referred to in note 3, the subsequent short form is" X, supra note 3." This in turn means that every time the piece is edited and the footnote number of the initial reference changes, every subsequent supra cite has to change also.

bdarcus

Isis: hmm ... your "supra" issue is actually the op.cit issue I claimed I'd never support ;-)

In truth, notwithstanding my hostility to these as a reader, the basics of this are fairly easy to support. You basically just say to use the string "supra" for subsequent citations.

One potential problem, though, is making sure ibid (or whatever it's called in BB) still works.

Another (bigger) problem is the other bit: the need to refer to the note for the first occurrence. I'll look into this, but I suspect it would require some changes to CSL to enable it. This feature at least makes op.cit./supra a little more manageable for the reader.

JakeLL

So I just tried to download the BlueBook citation style and it says right next to the Bluebook citation, "Invalid" in red lettering. Is it no longer available? I downloaded it, but it seems that there is no substance in the code. I would be willing to use it no matter how beta, or even alpha stage it really is.

Also is there a method for having Zotero automatically fill in the fields when I save a webpage on Westlaw, or will I need to fill that info in manually for now?

bdarcus

Yikes ... how embarrassing! Fixed now.

To use it, you just click the "install" link.

bdarcus

Isis: try again; supra should now work ;-)

Cassandra2323

Almost there! Still doesnt quite work. When footnote 1 was

1 Mary E Becker, Barriers Facing Women in the Wage-Labor Market and the Need for Additional Remedies: A Reply to Fischel and Lazear, 53 The University of Chicago Law Review 934-949 (1986); R. R. Banks, J. L. Eberhardt & L. Ross, Discrimination and Implicit Bias in a Racially Unequal Society, 94 California Law Review 1169 (2006)

Footnote 2 came out
R. R. Banks, J. L. Eberhardt & L. Ross, supra note 2; Mary E Becker, supra note 1

In other words, it said that the second cxite in fn 1 was in fn 2

Thanks!